Discussion Over at Fusor.net

"The Man Who Mastered Gravity" was published in March, 2023. Use this space to share your thoughts, comments, praise and/or cries of outrage.
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Paul Schatzkin
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Discussion Over at Fusor.net

Post by Paul Schatzkin »

I sent copies of the book to my long-time friends/colleagues over at the fusor.net forums, and Richard Hull has started a thread about it here:

https://fusor.net/board/viewtopic.php?t=14825

It's an interesting schooling on a variety of theoretical subjects.

I'm still struggling with 'gravity is not a force.'

Hmmm.....???

--PS
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Re: Discussion Over at Fusor.net

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What a glowing and apt review from Richard Hull! And what a smart bunch of people.

I will never catch up, though I have made a valiant effort. I started out researching lifter science and ended up reading about relative permittivity and solvents.

So Mr. Hull does not think that Townsend worked with electrogravitics in any significant way. I have a suspicion that he is right. I am happy to see, though, that Ion wind is getting the respect it deserves, at last.
Ion wind, ionic wind, corona wind or electric wind is the airflow induced by electrostatic forces linked to corona discharge arising at the tips of some sharp conductors (such as points or blades) subjected to high voltage relative to ground. Ion wind is an electrohydrodynamic phenomenon. Ion wind generators can also be considered electrohydrodynamic thrusters.

The term "ionic wind" is considered a misnomer due to misconceptions that only positive and negative ions were primarily involved in the phenomenon. A 2018 study found that electrons play a larger role than the negative ions during the negative voltage period. As a result, the term "electric wind" has been suggested as a more accurate terminology.[1]

This phenomenon is now used in an MIT ionic wind plane, the first solid state plane, developed in 2018.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ion_wind


ION Wind plane, with no moving parts:
Screen Shot 2023-04-09 at 7.43.50 AM.png
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Re: Discussion Over at Fusor.net

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I just posted a reply to one of Richard's first posts in this thread,

https://fusor.net/board/viewtopic.php?p=98364#p98364

It will be interesting to see where that thread goes, if anywhere (though I do wish it was happening over here instead of over there...)

Richard is an interesting... how shall we say.... piece of work? His postings can be rather dense, at times bordering on 'word salad' until you read 'em through several times (and who has time for that?). While on the one hand he seems as knowledgeable as anybody in these realms, at other times he seems locked in to what he knows – when the whole point to everything I've done is to draw a circle around what we don't know. Trouble is I lack the depth of scientific knowledge to be able to add much to the discussion beyond the question.

I'm from the Feynman camp. How did he put it?
"If you think you understand quantum mechanics, then you don't understand quantum mechanics."
https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=967586087044967

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/07/opin ... ysics.html
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Paul Schatzkin, author of 'The Man Who Mastered Gravity' https://amz.run/6afz
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Re: Discussion Over at Fusor.net

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The problem is that we will never know. The good stuff is buried.
when the whole point to everything I've done is to draw a circle around what we don't know.
If we focus on what we CAN see, we can tighten the circle.

We can see that the date range of the conspicuously missing notebooks corresponds with the development of the first spy satellites, with much of the work done in Valley Forge, PA, where Townsend and family lived at the time.

We can see that the year (57/58) he disappeared from Linda's life corresponds to both the International Geophysical Year, which provided cover for the establishment of the "listening posts" in the [overt] interest of science, on borders of friendly nations surrounding Russia.

Traveling further backwards in time, looking at the Cornillion papers, we, (or I, at least) can see that Townsend was thinking, even then, about materials that would later be needed for the satellite re-entry vehicles materials that would come from Clevite Brush

The level of detail that is given in the report, about each experiment conducted by Sud Oeste, should satisfy even Richard Hull's critical standards, but the really good stuff begins on page 107 with Cornillion's 1955 Intelligence Report to Sud Oeste. On P111, he goes into great detail about his first meeting with Townsend:
Dr. Brown looked over Dr. Rose’s paper and smiled saying; “we have made enormous progress since this report was written”, however with respects to my inquiry he told me that he was not at liberty to discuss the issue at that exact moment. Without being specific he explained that he was under oath with official organizations not to discuss the subject with anyone. He did mention that he would inquire about the possibility of collaboration and that I should call him the next day. I told him I was surprised to hear about the security issues because Shank and Rose had informed me that the research had been abandoned. He told me that it wasn’t their fault because they themselves were unaware of Brown’s recent activities.
https://ia902602.us.archive.org/16/item ... Report.pdf
He immediately explained to me that this subject is now “classified information”. He mentioned that in the past part of the information had become momentarily declassified, -only to become reclassified almost immediately afterwards. That is, -no doubt the point when W*(blacked out)* project information leaked out. The W*(blacked out)* project now deals specifically with dynamic applications of the B/B principle and these applications are now classified.

As mentioned above, the present “dynamic” applications are classified; however, there also exists a completely different “static” application which is left to explore by the open scientific community. He explained to me that there are still breakthroughs left to be achieved in aviation material sciences whereby the inertial properties of the so-modified aviation material would remain unchanged however the material itself is likely to experience a reduced attraction to the force of gravity, -such that the material would react as if it’s weigh would be reduced by the order of 1/10 its normal weight. In fact, rare earths are now being exploited because of their vulnerability to this negative gravity force effect.
Cornillion goes on to relate that Brown says has to be at the Franklin Institute on April 14. I checked to see what was happening around there around that time. In June of that year, the Committee of Arts and Scientists announced the winner of the Stewart Ballantine Medal, to Claude Shannon, who would go on to become one of the giants in the field of information communications.
FranklinInstitute55.png
https://www.fi.edu/sites/default/files/ ... titute.pdf

Shannon would have presented his paper at the Institute, sometime prior to the announcement. I checked his bio thinking that if he and Townsend had points of prior connection, it might increase the likelihood of Townsend having an interest Mr. Shannon's work. I believe they would have crossed paths during the war:
Shannon.png
Notice how the writer skated through Shannon's time at Princeton? I don't know what he studied there, but If you dig deep enough you can find evidence that Einstein's WWIi research for the navy was conducted under the auspices of their Mark II Fire Control radar program. IIRC, according to Townsend's military records*, he was assigned to the shipboard testing and integration of this radar.

*I have no way of knowing if you and I saw the same records. I kick myself for not having made copies of them, when I was reading them as part of Linda's memoir project.
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Re: Discussion Over at Fusor.net

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Jan Lundquist wrote: Tue Apr 11, 2023 7:35 pm We can see that the date range of the conspicuously missing notebooks corresponds with the development of the first spy satellites, with much of the work done in Valley Forge, PA, where Townsend and family lived at the time.

We can see that the year (57/58) he disappeared from Linda's life corresponds to both the International Geophysical Year, which provided cover for the establishment of the "listening posts" in the [overt] interest of science, on borders of friendly nations surrounding Russia.
Jan, your ability to correlate these dates never ceases to amaze me. I'm trying to get some idea which threads would be useful to drive some traffic / generate some discussion / sell some books, but I haven't quite got a handle on that yet.

I put a link to this post in the thread that Richard Hull started over at fusor.net – a long with your suggestion that
The level of detail that is given in the report... should satisfy even Richard Hull's critical standards
We'll see if he takes that bait.
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Re: Discussion Over at Fusor.net

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I'm trying to get some idea which threads would be useful to drive some traffic / generate some discussion / sell some books, but I haven't quite got a handle on that yet.
Unfortunately, I fear the threads here have a limited appeal to the vast majority of readers which makes it difficult to find topics that can drive traffic. If your (so far number 1 selling!) book gets much attention that should help.
Last edited by Jan Lundquist on Wed Apr 12, 2023 3:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Discussion Over at Fusor.net

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Nate has really dug into the full Cornillion report, and agrees that it is an extraordinary document. See Re: Project Montgolfier: Townsend Brown and Jacques Cornillon in France, 1957 Post by natecull » Wed Mar 29, 2023 2:18 am in this thread.

Paul, is this the report you paid Raymond to translate? Did he provide you the same attachments that are in the document Nate retrieved? For once we have a contemporary source who is not a Mysterious Insider on the Net, but I don't know who/how these got attached to the report that was first released?

Each attachment details a specific question the researchers were investigating, the experiment, and the results. Something odd jumped out at me, in one of the recountings. The narrator says they did what they could with the "measurement devices of the era." I wondered if that was a Raymond word, as it seem to be s a peculiar word for something that was a recent event.*

On another note, you said you actually spoke with Cornillion, in Pennsylvania. Did you happen to ask if his heritage was French Canadian or European French?

When I pinged around Newspapers.com, I found an early 20th century NYC antiques dealer, Louis Cornillion, quoted in a Montreal newspaper regarding forgeries in great museums. He could possibly have been Cornillion's father.

That same paper, was one of the first, if not the only one in Canada to report in great detail on young Townsend Brown's gravity work. I wondered if that story was how Townsend came to the attention of Quiet Canadian, William Stephenson.

*ETA the other odd thing about these attachments is that the test set up drawings have been created in far newer software. Did Raymond recreate them for you?
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Re: Discussion Over at Fusor.net

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Paul, I am following the discussion at Fusor.net. I see the Mr. Hull says he and Charles Yost had all the Project Montgolfier experiment data. But AFIK, if they did, they would have had to have been working from the original French documents as the report was not translated and made available in English until 2012 and the attachments, sometime later.

Did you see my post above, regarding the attachments? I have scrutinized them, as I do with all documents that appear on the web.

If you cannot vouch for them as being part of the original translation you paid for, then I wonder who added them and when.
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Re: Discussion Over at Fusor.net

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I have to confess, I had forgotten entirely that I'd paid Raymond for a translation of .... something. I'm not entirely sure now what exactly that something was but, yeah, it must have been the document you linked to above.

I'm looking at Richard's most recent post:

https://fusor.net/board/viewtopic.php?p=98406#p98406

...where he goes on about how all forms of energy in use on Earth today reflect the same 'hunter gatherer' mentality that governed our earliest ancestors. Cue 'Thus Spake Zarathustra' here: I have speculated elsewhere that humans are still, basically, apes staring at the monolith and wondering what we can do with this thigh bone. I think Richard's scenario confirms that suspicion.

But that's... Richard. He is never going to be the guy in the Flammarion engraving who puts his head through the veil into the unknown.
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Screenshot 2023-04-13 at 1.57.49 PM.png
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As to what was available to Richard and Charles Yost at the ESI I believe that did NOT include any of the Montgolfier material. Yost died in 2005, and that material came to our attention in late '08.

I wonder if Richard can even fathom how close he's getting with this little bit of derision:
Richard Hull wrote: Thu Apr 13, 2023 2:41 pm
Look to the aliens for the answers, they have obviously been around a lot longer and have "the good stuff", but will they share it? Or, do they dare share it? What must they think of us? We are certainly fun to watch, I am sure.
You know well that I shy away from the whole 'UFO coverup conspiracy' realm, but I am fairly certain that if there ARE advanced civilizations gallivanting around the Universe(s), they're not getting very far with rockets and chemical combustibles. Hell, even Richard seems to agree with that supposition. He just lacks the capacity to dwell on it for more than the moment it takes to dismiss it.

Cue Einstein here: "Imagination is more important than knowledge. Knowledge is limited. Imagination encircles the world."

Thus ends todays sermon. Please turn your hymnals now and lift our voices in hopeful song.
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Re: Discussion Over at Fusor.net

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My DH is certain that Townsend received downloads of knowledge from [another} Source. For lack of a better word, he calls them ETs.

In rereading my updated post on Townsend's SILs report about his joy in the natural world, I think he instinctively knew how to tune his emotional set to resonate with his muse, but then I believe all of us have a "guide on the side" waiting for us to be open to their help.

I am a classical Dewey Pragmatist, however, and ask for problems I can solve and they always point me toward the most astounding information. Here are what the facts on the ground around Townsend tell me. Again, I know some of this because I scrutinized the military records that were in Linda's possession. And I believe you documented some of this in your earlier, weightier tome.

Among his papers was the official permission document authorizing Seaman Townsend Brown of the NRL to check out a boat from the Navy Yard, for the purpose of testing of a wavemeter. And, lo and beholdd, look at what else was happening at the NRL about then:
The principle of radar was “rediscovered” at NRL in 1930 when L.A. Hyland observed that an aircraft flying through the beam of a transmitting antenna caused a fluctuation in the received signal.
https://www.britannica.com/technology/r ... y-of-radar

Asky yourself where the wave meter that measured the "observed fluctuations" was likely to be located?

DING DING DING

Sure, the lab employees were civilians, so perhaps Seaman Brown was the only person they could authorize to check out a Navy boat. Or perhaps he was the only one with significant boating experience. Even if (HIGHLY unlikely) he had noting to do with the radar experiment, he was present at its birth. Can I prove it? No. Will I go to the grave believing it? Yes.

In spite of this discovery, the NRL did not actively pursue radar development until later. As we know, there was a funding squeeze in the interim years. Not only could they not fund additional research, no matter how they kicked and screamed they could neither give Seaman Brown a raise in pay, nor could the USN retain him when his enlistment period was up.

Hitler's macroaggressions would incentivize the radio research work of both the Army and the Navy , however and beginning in 1938, greatly benefit by the invention of an antenna that could both send and receive, they went hard at it again. The attack on Pearl Harbor cemented the importance of "radio intelligence" to the forthcoming war.

Cryptologists had learned that Japan intended to declare war that day, but bureaucratic snafus prevented the alert from reaching Pearl Harbor in time. The only warning of the approaching planes was detected by one of the army's first operational RADAR sets, the SCR 270, operating at 100 MHZ. Unfortunately, no one there knew what the signals meant until the bombs started falling.

After that, there was an all out scrum over the Top Level administration and control of radar intelligence: The Army and the Navy had been tussling over this since 1940. Initially, they shared responsibility for transmitting intercept intelligence to the WH, on alternate days. Then they went to alternate months. By mid 1942, the the Navy was girding their loins for the final fight.
MEMORANDUM FOR ADMIRAL F. J. HORNE.

Subject: Radio Intelligence Organization

June 20, 1942

Through the piping times of peace extending over a period of some twenty odd years Radio Intelligence struggled and was never allowed out of the closet. Politically it was illegal to have such an organization and for anyone to devote his time to the subject was committing professional suicide.

Now that the war is in being, many activities are desirous of having a finger in the pie....

https://media-cdn.dvidshub.net/pubs/pdf_63777.pdf

TLDR: June 17 The first two memos are from Joseph Reasor Redman then aide to Admiral Horne who heads USN Department of Communications. The third is from his younger brother, John R. Redman, who was head of the new combat intelligence unit within the OP-20 -G, Naval intelligence organization. The siblings seem to have colluded to move the Radio Intelligence flag from one department to another.

In memo one, Joseph Redman (tactfully and craftily) points out that he can only speak to the Naval organizational structure. He argues, forcefully, that Naval Communications Division ,(vs. Naval Intelligence) would be the natural home for Radio Intelligence since this group had been battle hardened by the in Battle of Corregidor. He also manages a bit of side-eye at the Army's west coast intercept operations in the process, saying, in effect. who knows what the hell THEY are doing?

Notably, these memos describe the complex infrastructure needed to support Radio Intelligence. They affirm that the Washington office had all the needed equipment in place, and it would be cause a delay if it had to be moved. Additionally, the Washington office was already working as a seamless unit with the detachments at Pearl Harbor and Melbourne (relocated there after the fall of Corregidor). They go into plans for adding personnel and offloading as many tasks as possible to WAVES (Hello, Helen Towt), and then layout the bones of what would become the curriculum for signals intelligence training.

Two items in particular caught my eye. What organization was this? "Correlated with this work is the D.F. organization, which is entirely a matter of radio communications...?" Direction Finding might be a logical answer, but it is not "entirely a matter of radio communications. Or is it? Would it have had its own organization?

I also noted this statement, saying that there was currently much work underway to calculate formulas to make allowances for all known "perturbations in the field.} (sorry, my words, not his.)
Screen Shot 2023-04-14 at 1.41.25 PM.png
SIDEBAR: The periodicity of Townsend's "gravity wave" observations would become a part of the 1952 Cady Report, to be discussed elsewhere in this forum. In brief, the Cady Report is sometimes, erroneously, cited as dismissing the Beifield Brown effect. But folks tend to overlook the fact that though the report looked at Townsend's measurements in regards to all sorts of cyles, Cady specifically states that he did NOT look to verify Browns claims of correlation to sidereal time. http://www.rexresearch.com/ttbrown/ttbrown.htm

I find that most curious in light of future Noble Prize winner and father of MagnetoHydroDynamics (MHD), Hans Alfven's earlier calculations that "even a small sidereal time variation of the cosmic radiation would imply such great magnetic fields as to bend the paths of cosmic-ray particles" {See: On the Sidereal Time Variation of the Cosmic Radiation Hannes Alfvén Phys. Rev. 54, 97 – Published 15 July 1938} IOW, sidereal time might be a key to levering the untapped power of the stars.


As we now know, at the end of all the To-ing and Fro-ing of that time, Townsend was directed to transfer "his" equipment to the USN. He "left" the Navy in October and relocated to the West Coast. Soon thereafter a replica set of his equipment was constructed in the basement of (Paul, help me out, here) the ?- Banks Building in LA, while he resided on Wonderland Avenue, quite near the historic Lookout Mountain facility, headquarters for the newly established West Coast Defense Command. Important to know, because we have been told that Townsend ALWAYS lived close to his work.

If the new command was staffed according to the recommendations of the Redman brothers, there would have been a position for senior Radio Intelligence officer with authority over the implementation and administration of such, with open access to the highest Commanding Officer.

While I think Brown's reported Vega work was certainly legitimate, I do not believe it was the primary reason he was there. In the end, the Navy may have won a Pyrrhic victory, They lost Townsend to the "deeper draft" vessel of all that SIGINT would become, once the genie was out of the bottle.

Or the rabbit down the hole, if you prefer.
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Re: Discussion Over at Fusor.net

Post by natecull »

I'm still struggling with 'gravity is not a force.'

Hmmm.....???
Yes, that's the mainstream view of gravity since Einstein's General Relativity in 1915: that gravity is not a "force" but "curvature of spacetime". So it becomes a matter of topology rather than forces. Then the electromagnetic/electroweak and nuclear strong forces are the only forces that have to be dealt with, and those are modelled using Effective Quantum Field Theories (Quantum Electrodynamics and Quantum Chromodynamics), as... bunches of wibbly-wobbly stuff which are neither particles nor waves but probability fields or somesuch, I don't have the faintest idea how to think about those. I have the greatest admiration for the physicists who do, and who are building actual hardware to test their theories (quantum computers and condensed matter physics, mostly). I have less admiration for the physicists who don't build any hardware or make any testable predictions and yet continue to produce papers.

Frankly I think separating gravity out from "the real forces" like this is almost certainly wrong, because obviously gravity and matter interact, and I think Einstein thought it was wrong too, which is why he pursued his topology-based Unified Field Theory so hard for 40 years despite there being ultimately no results from it.

But that "gravity is not a force" is indeed the mainstream modern physics viewpoint today.

Regards, Nate
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We'll find the time to show you, wonders never cease
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Re: Discussion Over at Fusor.net

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They lost Townsend to the "deeper draft" vessel of all that SIGINT would become, once the genie was out of the bottle.
Hmm. Do we think SIGINT (NSA/NRO, say) is actually the "deeper draft vessel", or is there a deeper one?

My feeling was that Morgan all along was pointing to the civilian business roots of the interwar Trans-Atlantic intelligence community. The Pinkertons taken to global scale, essentially. With the suggestion that (especially in the 1950s, where even Eisenhower was suspected of being a Communist stooge by many on the political right) the big business CEOs funding and building technology for that intelligence community felt themselves loyal not to the military or government (because: scary democratic socialism) but to each other, first of all.

And that those personal loyalties continued to outrank even the highest classifications. And therefore, that some studies of some subjects - and perhaps, development and even deployment of some hardware.....? - continued through that network of personal business loyalties.

At least that's the impression I get from the "Carolines" legend. It seems to track with what we know of the "UFO Invisible College" as Jacques Vallee described such an informal network. Also with private security organizations like Wackenhut (now G4S) who -- quite bizarrely from an outside perspective -- are the security force for even top classified sites like Area 51. I mean you'd expect such an important site to be patrolled by military special forces under full governmental control, wouldn't you? But no, private backroom/boardroom deals seem to outrank the American armed forces in this situation. G4S isn't even a fully American company!

And maybe it's like that in many other defense-industrial places where one naively wouldn't expect it to be like that. That the industrial tail is wagging the defense dog.

Morgan seems to present such a situation as obvious and good and right, and I'm sure it seems that way from inside it. But to those not inside the CEO old-school-tie club, it doesn't seem quite so obviously good.
My DH is certain that Townsend received downloads of knowledge from [another} Source. For lack of a better word, he calls them ETs.

In rereading my updated post on Townsend's SILs report about his joy in the natural world, I think he instinctively knew how to tune his emotional set to resonate with his muse, but then I believe all of us have a "guide on the side" waiting for us to be open to their help.
I agree with this. I think that the "muses" actually exist and that most if not all human creativity is actually a partnership. It is a complicated partnership though, and sometimes subtle ideas are communicated to us at a subconscious level that then take years to "unpack" and sometimes we never fully succeed in unpacking them correctly. They remain elusive "hunches" or cranky obsessions that we aren't able to put into physical effect. Much wasted scientific effort has happened trying to chase a half-formed hunch. But then a generation later, maybe, someone else with a few more tools at their disposal manages to do it and that idea then becomes part of general human knowledge and we forget that there ever was a time when we didn't know it, and that it had to be slowly and painfully brought to birth.

I'm not sure that the "muses" are necessarily ETs as we would understand that term. But they're something.

Regards, Nate
Going on a journey, somewhere far out east
We'll find the time to show you, wonders never cease
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