Chapter 62 - Meet the Browns of Ka-Lae-Hau

Use this section for any discussion specifically related to the chapters posted online of the unfolding biography, "Defying Gravity: The Parallel Universe of T. Townsend Brown
twigsnapper
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leaps of imagination

Post by twigsnapper »

Leaping soaring imagination here

And if you were to go for a smaller deep diving sub? One that had certain stealth capabilities? then she could sit on the bottom anywhere if she had to and forced to it, maybe she had other armament besides nukes? You don't have to send a ship to the bottom in pieces by explosions near her. You just have to wipe out her electrical systems. So she never again answers the helm. Now there is a scarey bit of fantasy what? What about a weapon that simply puts em units into disarray?

I am reminded of Dr. Browns experiences on the old S48. Half of the time she would not answer the helm during drills. Went beyond her " crush depth then" Of course in todays world she was operating in a wading pool but crushing was still crushing. Then were other times when her crew couldn't keep her submerged and she kept popping to the surface " like a cork"

Remember here folks that in 1950 it would be another four years before the Nautilus would hit the salt water. Whatever was being done was being done with ships like the old Cutlass. Most had just turned into guppies and could stay down a bit longer. All of them needed better communications but still the ones that were already built were quickly turned into reconaissance machines in the hands of spies. Mainly the Americans and the Enlish. The Englsh made really good submerged spies. Plenty of practice! twigsnapper
grinder
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Blind Mans Bluff

Post by grinder »

“Quote from Blind Mans Bluffâ€
Mikado14
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Re: leaps of imagination

Post by Mikado14 »

twigsnapper wrote: All of them needed better communications but still the ones that were already built were quickly turned into reconaissance machines in the hands of spies. Mainly the Americans and the Enlish. The Englsh made really good submerged spies. Plenty of practice! twigsnapper
Why are you "telegraphing" here? And the question I have, if you will answer, is if you are using an EG telephony system? In fact, I would pull out those navy beans again. Ever wonder why for the past year every time I would wager, or mostly, it was with "navy" beans?

Mikado
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy
twigsnapper
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appropriate for the time

Post by twigsnapper »

Mikado. Confusing you. Sorry. When I mentioned the " ones that were already built" I was referring to the older subs, pre nuclear, which were undergoing the " guppy" transformtions, one at a time, as quickly as possible. What I meant for you to see was that in the summer of 1949 these ships were beginning to be pressed into the " spy" service, ready or not. They needed to have those new snorkles first but beginning with the SS348 out of Londonderry the US had "spooks" underwater.

As far as " advanced technology"? Well, one step at a time. If your question was about " electrogravitic communications?" the answer was NO.

First things first. You have to figure this antennae thing out. You got to teach people to turn the damned thing on properly. The Soviets were going for deep water now, not confined to their coastlines as before and subs had to shadow them, learn everything about them and it meant they had to figure ways of listening in on conversations wherever and whenever they could. Thats what was needed.

When you need a horse and buggy to keep up with the other guys horse and buggy .... thats what you use. Or that at least was the decision from some who were in control of ........ ferraris. twigsnapper
grinder
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Even Steven?

Post by grinder »

Mr. Twigsnapper, Sir.......Maybe while you are in the mood for answering ( sort of directly.?) ( I appreciate everything that comes in our direction, NOT COMPLAINING, and I understand what constraints you are under A LITTLE)

But while we are on sort of a roll here maybe you can answer this? Is the "organization" you are working for engaged in a long term game of " Even Stephen" Or maybein the a case of two kids and Koolaid ... "whoever pours, the other picks?" Seems suddenly that is what I am seeing.

Started with our new forum posts from JZimmer. He asked a really good question...... if we had the technology why didn't we just shorten up the conflicts?, use what we had to wipe the other guys out basically. Win the damned conflict. Period. And he has some really good points there.

And then all of the sudden I realized thats why all of this technology wasn't dumped into just one lap. Who ever has all of this stuff is playing this game of Even Stephen ... aren't they? Ready to bet my future on this. Can you please tell me that. Straight out? grinder
Mikado14
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Re: Just an opinion

Post by Mikado14 »

JZimmer wrote: Generally I think a lot of the principals and possible inventions that Dr. Brown may have created have a lot of merit, so don’t take this as a negative; Just consider it more food for thought.

In thinking about this Truman/Secret meeting stuff that has been floating around I just can’t see the US having that type of technology and not using it. To me it just doesn't seem as likely as other items such as time travel or gravity drives. I feel this way because I can’t see the latter having the same huge military impact that a high speed, silent submarine drive, so the reasons to keep it quite just don't make sense to me.

Think national defense for a moment. If we had tech to allow us to have really advanced sub technology I would have thought that the cold war should have/would have gone differently. With that tech, we could have made lots of there sub fleet that constituted a large part of the nuke threat "disappear" without anyone being the wiser.

In comparison, a grav drive would have made us a lot stronger from an air power prospective, but it's harder to hide and I don't think would have had nearly the impact on the balance of power during the cold war.

So, it's just my opinion, but I think that the idea that we have really high tech sub tech in the early 40's and 50's a lot less possible that it's counterpart the really high speed aircraft.

Anyway, that is my opinion and Im sticking to it….. lol :roll:
I have to answer this after the night I had, uh Elizabeth?

I believe I would have to go with you on this one JZimmer. In the early 50's, and as Mr. Twigsnapper has pointed out somewhere in this panoply of thought, that the class of subs in 1951 were much like the Cutlass, which according to my Father, was a Tench class and there were Porpoise, Mackerel, Sargo and he believes some had letters. This was pretty good for him for it seems that is about all he can remember are things from 50 years ago. Anyway, These were all Diesel subs and from what he remembers, there were quite a few lost and never found or accounted for might be a better term or even lost in action. One must ask why, was it because of crush depth? some. Was it failure of the ballast controls? some. Was it battle damage? some. Probably will never know for I haven't seen any survivors talking from a lost sub.

What does all of this have to do with anything?... Technology of the time.

What could Dr. Brown have shown the Navy brass in 1951 that would have put them ahead of everyone else? Several things, there wasn't just one.

There was a demonstration where a gentleman in his late 40's purportedly lost his temper and I believe someone said that he may have been pounding a hand on a table, or was it a desk? It was further said that this was very uncharacteristic of him and perhaps he should have been nominated for an Oscar. And wasn't this after the demonstration of the "discs around a maypole"?

Let's go further, would radar be reflected from an energized disc that has created a gravity well? or, how about this,......Would sonar?

How "do a sub" communicate with it's base when it is underwater?

The words, "It's all about communication" reverberate.

Just some downloaded info that I may have totally read wrong.

Mikado

PS: I don't believe Dr. Brown had much if anything to do with the Nautilus as far as propulsion is concerned. If anyone did it was Wigner with Rickover and the Oak Ridge boys...wasn't that a group? Also, I believe the name TPX will or might rear it's ugly head if only to create smoke in the battle. Sort of like a PT boat.
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy
Mikado14
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I see

Post by Mikado14 »

Mr. Twigsnapper,

I see you answered my post as I was typing my second.

Communications, the need to know. Number one on the list.

Mikado
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy
twigsnapper
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accurate downloads

Post by twigsnapper »

As far as some of your "downloads" Mikado, sorry about t he sleepless night but you are very much on the mark. Only time will tell you the rest of what you need to know. Patience. Keep your crystal ball handy. You will need it again!

And this is the direct answer that you wanted grinder. Even -Stephen, for centuries, not just months, prepared to go longer. Now. What is YOUR answer? Take all the time you require. twigsnapper
Mikado14
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Re: accurate downloads

Post by Mikado14 »

twigsnapper wrote:
And this is the direct answer that you wanted grinder. Even -Stephen, for centuries, not just months, prepared to go longer. Now. What is YOUR answer? Take all the time you require. twigsnapper
Can I jump into this pool? Please? Pretty Please?

Centuries yeah, ok,......that crystal ball again.

"prepared to go longer" well, whatever it takes.....whatever it takes.

Why does Eric Idle come to mind? nudge - nudge - wink - wink

Mikado
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy
Langley
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Re: hmmmm

Post by Langley »

Mikado14 wrote:And what if those subs were not the 6000 ton variety? What if we are talking more of recon? What if you had a fleet of say 20 small recon subs with maybe a dozen crewmen and the ability to launch a couple of missles, oh maybe 4? That means 80 missles could be launched virtually from anywhere relatively fast.

Hell, just a day dream anyway.

Mikado

Nice to meet you JZimmer!
OMG I agree with Mikado.

Anyone remember the kerfuffle Toshiba caused when it let slip the design for the conventional low noise sub prop not all that many years ago?

In the meantime,
http://www.springerlink.com/content/u225220h53180p69/

is interesting.

The late WW2 X class Uboats were a cause celeb that had the West and the USSR competing in Germany for documentation and German experts.

It could be that if the USSR got wind that some US nuclear capable sub were undetectable, MAD would have crumbled and such subs might have brought a Soviet first strike closer. It could be that the Cold War went according to plan. Even Vietnam burnt a few more Rubles to the cause of wasting the Soviet economy. Why was Haiphong Harbor never mined? (Ok once ) So the Soviets could still ship lots of stuff to the NVA. Burning up their economy.

We don't know that which is classified. The military successfully keeps many secrets. Not long ago there was flight after flight of US Starlifters and Galaxies landing in Alice Springs, disgorging stuff which is now stored at the Joint Defence Facility at Pine Gap Why? Noone who doesnt need to know will ever know. Including me.

Sub comms thread (North West Cape Western Australia)
http://bbs.keyhole.com/ubb/showflat.php?Number=60218

Official doc:
http://stinet.dtic.mil/oai/oai?&verb=ge ... =AD0713596
grinder
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Project Jennifer

Post by grinder »

Anybody ever hear of that?

I browsing through " Blind Mans Bluff" I started thinking, you know, if you DID have a special submarine wouldn't it make sense to have a "rescue rig" on the surface? I remember that Paul made the remark that even the old S48 had a " sub tender" above, like, lotta help she would have been.

But you know, when you have something like even a common nuclear sub, and it goes down for whatever reason, I imagine there would be one helluva race to bring the thing to the surface. For its owners it would be to recover it. To its foes it would be like this enormous treasure chest. Certainly worth going after. Think code books, classified equipment, new weapons?

Anyway I wondered if the " Caroline Group ever considered what it would do if one of its special ships went down? Did it have a rescue ship somewhere? Something that could reach really far down. Of course I don't think anyone would think they could save the humans on board but what lengths ( literally) would they go to rescue a special sub before, say, the Russians got to it? Of course if its so deep NOTHING could get to it, I guess it would be safe enough.

And then I ran across something that Semore Hersh was quoted in "Blind Mans Bluff." He said he had an "inside CIA source that gave him the words " Project Jennifer"

When he followed up he found that he was dealing with the launching in 1973 of the Hughes built " Glomar Explorer" They told the public that it was a mining ship but that was hardly its use. She was after a sunken Russian sub, they said.

And I had a friend that just told me that that Glomar Explorer was sighted anchored off Catalina Island for a good length of time right after it was launched

So here I go again. Where was Dr. Brown at the time and what connection might he have had with that enormous rig? For some reason I thought that question worth asking. Not really expecting more direct answers Mr. Twigsnapper so don't think I am getting greedy. Thanks for the last! grinder
Elizabeth Helen Drake
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whats the word?

Post by Elizabeth Helen Drake »

Langley.

I know that you will know this. What is the word again for the spot on the earth that is the exact opposit of a certain point? The word escapes me today for some reason.

And so what I am asking you is . ......Whats the exact opposit of Alice Springs? I don't have a globe at my fingertips... thought that you might know offhand. Elizabeth
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weird

Post by Trickfox »

viewtopic.php?p=7939#7939
Wow... this is weird.... we are discussing the glomar explorer elsewhere in this forum today. Elizabeth ,.... are you cross polinating the threads?
Trickfox
Last edited by Trickfox on Sat Jul 28, 2007 10:53 pm, edited 2 times in total.
The psychopropulsier (as pointed out in the book The Good-bye man by Linda Brown and Jan Lofton) is a Quantum entanglement project under development using Quantum Junctions. Join us at http://www.Peeteelab.com
Elizabeth Helen Drake
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if I am Trickfox

Post by Elizabeth Helen Drake »

f I am cross polinating the threads Trickfox its because I am a lost little bee!. Too many places to go and not enough time to get there!

I liked the pictures of the Glomar Explorer Trickfox . Thanks for finding them for us. Colorful!

Thanking all of you by the way for this really great discussion! It always happens when Paul has sort of " turned off " for the weekend. Usually right about then the forum just explodes with activity. I love it! Elizabeth
Elizabeth Helen Drake
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Alice Springs

Post by Elizabeth Helen Drake »

Langley,

Are you familiar with this? I realize that we are straying away from the various subjects here but I figure soon enough Paul will post his new chapter and we will all be focused on that so I hope its alright to cast some glances in some different directions.

As in Alice Springs. You said that you probably would not know what was going on there but here is an piece from a fellow that is offering some ideas. How valid I don't really know but its probably worth a glance?

Sometimes its up to us to make the decision whether we need to know something ...... or not ...... speaking from experience.

http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/esp_offlimits_8f.htm

Just a sample:

"Construction of the base was undertaken by American contractors who flew in their own workforce from the U.S.A. on a shift basis. No Australians were involved in the construction work which took around two years before the base became operational. Construction work continued for several years on large underground facilities which are rumoured to extend some twelve levels below the base. Long tunnels are laid out in a pattern similar to the spokes of a wheel and extend several miles from the center of the base."

The rest of the artcicle is full of comments about increased UFO sightings..... which may be valid or may be a tried and true disinformation campaign. Don't know.

Still would like to know what is directly opposite Alice Springs on the globe? Elizabeth
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