LESSONS OF HISTORY

A place to engage extended discussions of things that come up on the ttbrown.com website. Anything goes here, as long as it's somehow pertinent to the subject(s) at hand.
Paul S.
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Location: Psych Ward

Cracking the Code

Post by Paul S. »

grinder wrote:I do that all the time. But in your case you have an excuse of information overload.
Hey, thanks for the "pass" on that one...
Victoria has really struck something when she noted " random unit" of the SS. Random ... meaning .... not playing by any set schedules or rules ..... being where they want to be, when they want to be?
My best guess is that "random" is a code word here for a Caroline operation.

BTW, I can't find the quote/reference right this minute, but I seem to recall a passage in Nick Cook's book where he was talking about similar operations, "rogue" squads scouring the German country-side in the closing weeks of and immediately after the end of the war. I believe the code-word "random" could be applied to them, too.
did this Berlin Police unit handle the upper level .... say, from Hitler to his troops ...communications?
I'm thinking that is a well educated guess, too. Brings to mind what was said a few chapters back about those German "FISH" machines that Hitler used to communicate with his high command. Maybe there's a connection there.
Wheres Elizabeth? Still on vacation Paul? Missing her comments!
Elizabeth just checked in with me. She's back in the vicinity of her keyboard. I told her to go ahead and take the weekend to get her head screwed on again (it can take a few days), but I'll bet we hear from her sooner than that...

--PS
Paul Schatzkin
aka "The Perfesser"
"At some point we have to deal with the facts, not what we want to believe is true." -- Jack Bauer
Elizabeth Helen Drake
Sr. Research Asst.
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known too well

Post by Elizabeth Helen Drake »

Ah, you know me too well.

36th Police Division of Berlin eh? Why do I take that as a flashing light that screams "Look at me, look at me, look at me". Not promising any coherent thoughts though. Monday maybe?

Thought you would appreciate this though Victoria. I visited a Texas ranch for awhile. Got caught in one of those eerie light (rainbow at night??????) skies. Looking for tornados I was! right and left! Longtime cattle rancher friend I was visiting went out to "ship cattle" at one in the morning. Over twelve hundred of those little sodden and spooked creatures. Lightning cracking all around. The cattle had eyes as wide as mine. All I could think of was " STAMPEDE!"

My Texas cowboy friend thinks this is all great fun. Soaked even past the weatherproofing heavy jacket ( and it was hailing too!), slip sliding in the mud on a horse he has been offered ten grand for but won't sell ...... said he knew about "ball lightning" alright ... that he had seen it float down a fence and then drift eerily away, taking its own sweet time. Ah the joys of being out there " ahorseback" as he says. Spurs chinking in the hallway after working all night in the driving rain ... they sure mean "mud room" there .... but as long as he is up there on a good horse he declares that there is nothing better. I suspect that he and Mr. Twigsnapper are much the same in character.

You Texas people are from some pretty tough stock, all I can say.

Mikado, as you know, I was never able to get my course turned far enough north to visit Ringing Rocks but I have not given up on the idea of a second trip before the summer is out.

Elizabeth
Elizabeth Helen Drake
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familiar name

Post by Elizabeth Helen Drake »

Paul,
regarding the 35th Police unit .... from the source that you quoted ... it apparently was formed up in the spring of 45 and its strength remains unknown. Thats certainly convenient for sheltering "random teams"

The second thing I noticed was the name Pipkorn. listed as the "commander" ..... I think that, if my memory serves me right, he was mentioned in Von Lucks book. In fact I think Von Luck took over Pipcorns tank units and incorporated them with his just before he surrendered ( unfortuneately to the Russians) Double check me please, I may be wrong.


I would gamble a guess that OUR mystery tank commander was operating EITHER directly under Pipcorn ... or if the timing was right ( think probably not) perhaps he was under Von Luck himself. Now there is an interesting consideration. Anyway, that late in teh war, as grinder so neatly put it ... communications were certainly breaking down and the communications that Hitler had .... left him feeling like a clam .... though my impression is that mentally he had fairly well lost it mentally toward the end anyway. Mr. Twigsnapper has mentioned to me that many messages flowed from Berlin ordering movements by troops that were no longer in existence.

Am I fairly right Mr. Twigsnapper? An onion within an onion indeed!

Elizabeth
Mikado14
Mr. Nice Guy
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Re: known too well

Post by Mikado14 »

Elizabeth Helen Drake wrote:

Mikado, as you know, I was never able to get my course turned far enough north to visit Ringing Rocks but I have not given up on the idea of a second trip before the summer is out.
Well, let's see, it wasn't as bad as when I was a Junior in High School and Debbie Mackey stood me up for the prom. Those damn Irish girls with the black hair and blue eyes.

Well it is a good thing anyway, I heard the Rocks weren't ringing for someone forgot the electric bill.

Best,

Mikado
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy
Elizabeth Helen Drake
Sr. Research Asst.
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lost electricity

Post by Elizabeth Helen Drake »

Thanks Mikado ......

I think if the ringing rocks were minus their electricity I believe I found where it all went! Texas! I have never actually seen purple lightning strikes and rainbows at night until this experience. Profound regard for the people who live in that kind of country.

I thought of the palomino horse that you grew up with watching this cowhorse operate close to these cattle. She was the color of a "newly minted gold coin" which I guess is the standard they use to describe that sort of metallic shine. A cow working machine!. If the sheer sight of her looming in the aisleway of those pens didn't move cattle she would pin her ears and snake he head out at them with her teeth snapping. Cows just MOVED, no arguement. I knew that there were such horses who did this sort of thing naturally but have actuallly always missed seeing one in action.

looking forward to the next chapter. Maybe by then I will get back into the swing of things! As you can tell, mentally, I think I am still on vacation! Elizabeth
twigsnapper
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useful fuel?

Post by twigsnapper »

Paul,

I am posting this to the forum instead of contacting you directly because I feel that there are others out there now that can make good use of this information, to your benefit. And I realized upon rereading some of my words here in this thread that I might have misinformed by not mentioning some information.

We are at a point in Pauls story of Dr. Browns activities where you really should try to put your " after the war" head on. Keeping good track of all of the different participants.

If I left you with the idea that the Russians just automatically shot Germans then I may have created a problem because in some instances this was not the case. In fact. SOME Germans were treated exceptionally well .... German technicians, and scientists in any kind of propulsion designs. or rocketry designs. In fact there were some industrial German towns taken over by the Russians which were peopled entirely by such workers. In one case particularly all of the houses occupied by these workers were isolated, Russian guards posted at the door ... and then at one moment the men inside were given one hour to pick ONE companion .... for a trip where they would not return. You can imagine the consternation. Were they to be saved? Or shot? A " companion for life" I think was the phrase. Some men picked their wives, thinking , live or die, they wanted to be together. Some men picked thier maids and left their wives behind. Strange agendas!

In any case these workers eventually found themselves well cared for, well paid and highly respected. And living outside Moscow. (outside ... so when they were asked by the West if they had any German scientists in Moscow they could say NO)

One reason Sputnik got up there before us. What was it that (I think) Bob Hope said at the time? THEIR GERMANS ( speaking of the Russians) were better than OUR GERMANS.

So when you read about Sarbacher and Riley standing in the mud trying to figure where to go next you can be sure what they were after were PEOPLE. Ahead of the Russians. or ..... overlooked by the Russians. But it was a royal freeforall that lasted until January 1958.

twigsnapper
Last edited by twigsnapper on Sun Jun 24, 2007 3:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Mikado14
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Re: useful fuel?

Post by Mikado14 »

twigsnapper wrote:Paul,


So when you read about Sarbacher and Riley standing in the mud trying to figure where to go next you can be sure what they were after were PEOPLE. Ahead of the Russians. or ..... overlooked by the Russians. But it was a royal freeforall. twigsnapper
Therefore you were involved with Miethe.

Mikado

*********
This is an edit:

Just throwing this out there so that you may see my path.

Sarbacher, Smith, Avro
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy
grinder
Senior Officer
Posts: 694
Joined: Wed Apr 05, 2006 6:20 am

Gotcha

Post by grinder »

Mikado,

Thanks for the edit because I was getting ready to say "what the ...." are you talking about? Now I see that you might just have something there.

But if what Mr. Twigsnapper has brought to our attention was happening (no doubts but still haven't looked it up, which I think he wants us to do, )How did Miethe remain free from the " grab a "lifelong companion" and go with us" sweep? What makes you so sure that he was one of the men on the list? And who was the fellow that was "lost" in the firefight? They apparently wanted him badly too.

And it seems to me that the Caroline Group was just like the Russians and everybody else. They were probably trying to collect " special people" too and all of this activity must have been REALLY frustrating. Reaching for someone and discovering that you had been beaten to the grab. I get the impression that time doesn't mean a whole lot to these Caroline people ( now THATS funny) so ten years later were they still trying to "lift" scientists from the Russians?

Boy, I don't know half enough about the history of the time.

Sarbacher, Smith (Canadian) The AVRO Company? Paul? We on the right track or did we jump off somewhere? grinder
Mikado14
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Re: Gotcha and back at ya

Post by Mikado14 »

grinder wrote: But if what Mr. Twigsnapper has brought to our attention was happening (no doubts but still haven't looked it up, which I think he wants us to do, )How did Miethe remain free from the " grab a "lifelong companion" and go with us" sweep? What makes you so sure that he was one of the men on the list? And who was the fellow that was "lost" in the firefight? They apparently wanted him badly too.
I sincerely doubt that was/would be the case when it came to the Caroline group. I would assume, due to their philosphies expressed here, that in the fullness of time they would bring over their families et al.
grinder wrote: And it seems to me that the Caroline Group was just like the Russians and everybody else. They were probably trying to collect " special people" too and all of this activity must have been REALLY frustrating. Reaching for someone and discovering that you had been beaten to the grab. I get the impression that time doesn't mean a whole lot to these Caroline people ( now THATS funny) so ten years later were they still trying to "lift" scientists from the Russians?
In general, I would say you are correct except the Caroline efforts realized that once the Russians "had" you, essentially, you were in a shell, their shell. With the Caroline, a new life would be established with perhaps a modicum of freedom but still observed. I am sure the race to grab essential individuals was motivated by the knowledge that the Russian machine would DEFINATELY develop weapons from this theory/technology. That would have been unacceptable.

I know that if I were standing there in the mud with Sarbacher and O'Reilly my words would have been "Oh crap! Who's next on the list?", and the dead scientist would be just that, a casualty to grieve later.

Just a Sunday thought from a crystal ball,

Mikado
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy
twigsnapper
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almost precisely

Post by twigsnapper »

Mikado,

Amost precisely my words at the time. Minus a few expletives.

And of course you have to remember that though they were treated well by thier Russian captors the German scientists could expect no recognition at all from the Russians once they learned what they needed to know from them. It was broadcast all over the world that the technology that put Sputnik into orbit was Russian spawned of course without a taint of other contributions. The Americans were a tad more generous with the credits. During the Berlin Air Lift for example groups of German aircraft mechanics were given full credit for keeping those planes in the air, much to their surprise. But not so with the Russians of course. At some point they were willing to see the Germans " go away" after they had served their purpose of design and instruction. Sort of like those "Magic Mules" we talked about a long time ago. After you have benefitted from their powers ... its tough to put them where no one will see them. twigsnapper
Mikado14
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Re: almost precisely

Post by Mikado14 »

twigsnapper wrote: Mikado,

Amost precisely my words at the time. Minus a few expletives.
I could fill in the gaps. <g>
twigsnapper wrote:
And of course you have to remember that though they were treated well by thier Russian captors the German scientists could expect no recognition at all from the Russians once they learned what they needed to know from them. It was broadcast all over the world that the technology that put Sputnik into orbit was Russian spawned of course without a taint of other contributions. The Americans were a tad more generous with the credits


Then you are saying it was all steak and potatoes until you gave them what they needed. Like having a gun to your head and asked to give me your wallet, in most scenarios, your dead either way, no witnesses. So, what was their next tour of duty? a Gulag?
twigsnapper wrote:
During the Berlin Air Lift for example groups of German aircraft mechanics were given full credit for keeping those planes in the air, much to their surprise.
Funny you should mention that, I have met Gale Halvorsen and he was most enthusiastic over the German people. To this day, he is still in touch with some of the children and you know what? he still flies right hand seat.
twigsnapper wrote: Sort of like those "Magic Mules" we talked about a long time ago. After you have benefitted from their powers ... its tough to put them where no one will see them. twigsnapper
Or, it's tough to put them where they can't see you. Would that be sort of like a remote area in Canada if your name were Miethe? The difficult thing is finding his decendents but would be easier if a picture were available.

Mikado
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy
Trickfox
The Magician
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Kapuskasing Ontario

Post by Trickfox »

Far up north in Canada (where I was born) there is a town called Kapuskasing.

They have a power and paper mill and a few "Experimental Farms".

At least that is what we were brough up to understand.

This was a smal community of research facilities that were said to be "performing experiments" to see how to improve the farming industry. (which has been doing just fine for hundreds of years without the assistance of these Government Facilities). General Motors also has a research Laboratory there that they call their Cold Weather test laboratory.

Funny thing about Kapuskasing.... you meet the oddest people from there. For instance James Cameron the creator of the movie "TITANIC" and several other box office movie hits was born in Kapuskasing.

Coincidentally so was my schoolroom friends Henry Buller, and Daniel Lukowski, both of which are descendants of German WWII camps prisoners who ended up staying in Canada when the war ended and the Canadian government offered free land to the former prisonners instead of sending them back to Germany. You see just outside Kapuskasing next to those "experimental farms" was where the Canadian government had their POW camps during WW2. NO fence arounfd the camp. If you left the camp on foot your death was guaranteed due to the shear isolation. You see there was only a railroad path up there and thousands of miles of arborial forest.

I think Mikado is correct and for the past several months I've been trying to figure out how to look for the "Meithe lead". There is so much trash around the AVRO car stories that I'm having a hard time picking up any relevant information.

The search is not quite over however, because I still have irons in the fire that I will stoke here real soon. I think small towns isolated in the nothern regions of Canada are probaly perfect places to hide valuable POW type scientists, and technicians. So perhaps I'm going to look a bit in this direction for a while.


Trickfox
The psychopropulsier (as pointed out in the book The Good-bye man by Linda Brown and Jan Lofton) is a Quantum entanglement project under development using Quantum Junctions. Join us at http://www.Peeteelab.com
Elizabeth Helen Drake
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interesting indeed

Post by Elizabeth Helen Drake »

What you said about the Canadian wilds was really interesting and I know far out of my range of knowledge. Thanks so much Trickfox.

So IF a PRIVATE group were to "latch on to" some German scientists after the war they would certainly offer a place for them to go where no other government would even find them. Where they could continue their work in peace. And of course, as Paul has already said, Sir William Stephenson was Canadian ... though in his later years he preferred the warmth of Bermuda. The man had connections. Also connections with AVRO through the 'Rootes Company I think .

I have never seen a picture of Miethe either. But what Mikdado mentioned about the mentality of the Caroline Group probably is entirely true. I don't think that they would have forced these men to be isolated without their family, so I wonder how long it took to slowly and carefully (so that the rest of the world wouldn't notice the drift) get families who belonged to these scientists together in one place? Of course this is assuming that all of this happened in the first place.

Didn't Cameron write " The Abyss?"" or am I thinking of someone else? If we are "spot on" as Mr. Twigsnapper might say with now ..... now doesn't anyone find that just a little odd?

Thanks Trickfox. Something to realy chew on and I thank you in advance for the work that you do. Elizabeth
Trickfox
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Smilling through the DUCK TAPE?

Post by Trickfox »

Found this in the ABOVE TOP SECRET forum!!

From historian Peter Merlin

"There are at least seven and maybe as many as eleven manned classified air craft that have not yet been unveiled that have been flying since 1985 and countless unmanned programs as well. Most of these things have been tested there. I know some of the guys that have flown these airplanes," Merlin continued.

Among the suspects is something called the Black Manta, a stealthy hypersonic craft that might explain the wispy images captured in a few photos around the world. Various black triangle-type craft have been spotted over American military bases and cities for years, some of them huge in size, big enough to require a big hangar.

Aviation journalist Bill Sweetman has long argued for the existence of the Aurora, another plane rumored to have been flown at Groom Lake. Sweetman says black budget figures hint at the existence of the plane, which some have dubbed the "unmanned SR-75 penetrator". Whichever of these ambitious projects ends up in full development, it's abundantly clear that the testing location of choice for top secret planes is still Area 51.

The Lockheed Company, whose so-called Skunkworks plant developed the U-2, SR-71, and stealth fighter -- all of which were test flown out at Area 51 -- says it will not comment on its new Air Force contract.

The Air Force is also not talking.
They are smilling under the duck tape pasted on their mouths


Trickfox
The psychopropulsier (as pointed out in the book The Good-bye man by Linda Brown and Jan Lofton) is a Quantum entanglement project under development using Quantum Junctions. Join us at http://www.Peeteelab.com
Victoria Steele
Mysterious Redhead
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bases

Post by Victoria Steele »

Trickfox,

Do you think that the Area 51 base is still in use for these highly secret projects? I don't know myself. It seems that they have had alot of publicity out there. Tourists go out to camp out on the hill side and though I know there is alot of room out there to be used I still think that its getting too visible.

Where else might these planes be stationed? Canada? South America? Australia? Anybody got any wild ass ideas? Might be an interesting discussion. An no, the idea of being Inderwater does not escape me, especially after all of those reports of USOs ( Unidentified Submerged Objects)

I'm voting for somewhere in the Bermuda Triangle but thats only my own personal thought. Victoria
Locked