Chapter 51: Quantum Germans

Use this section for any discussion specifically related to the chapters posted online of the unfolding biography, "Defying Gravity: The Parallel Universe of T. Townsend Brown
Langley
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seems there was obstruction

Post by Langley »

Although there was no way for the Americans to know it at the time, scientists in the United States began in around 1941 to pull far ahead of their counterparts in Germany. In January of that year, a physicist by the name of Walter Bothe made a critical miscalculation that caused Germany to mistakenly rule out graphite as a possible moderator. (Szilard had recently succeeded inLiquid thermal diffusion method for the enrichment of uranium convincing scientists in the still-neutral United States to keep secret the results of their atomic research, and, as a result, the Germans could not learn of their mistake from the open scientific literature.) This left expensive heavy water as the only viable moderator for a pile, and the plutonium path to the bomb was only possible if a chain-reacting pile could first be made to work.

With the surrender of Germany, only Japan remained as a possible atomic threat. Japanese physicists had noted the discovery of fission before the war, and they did inform the Japanese Army of the danger. Some research was conducted at a Tokyo laboratory into various methods of uranium enrichment, but comparatively little progress was made. In early 1943, a group of Japanese experts concluded that, while it was true that the United States was probably trying to build an atomic bomb, it might take Japan ten years or more to build one. Accordingly, little further research into nuclear energy was conducted in Japan beyond the construction of one cyclotron in Kyoto. http://www.mbe.doe.gov/me70/Manhattan/rivals.htm

Though Shimizu writing in the 80s maintains the cyclotron was for basic research and was dismayed when occupation troops smashed it up.
Langley
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Re: so serious.

Post by Langley »

I think this is really important.
http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/print/22270

It gives an alternate qualified source. The information fits with the story of this guy:

http://www.lanl.gov/news/releases/archive/05-007.shtml

So what do you think?

Oh then there's this:

http://www.subversiveelement.com/firefromsky27.html

There is a rich vein of information relating to a reported successful Nazi atomic weapon programme, and for those game enough, David Irving (couldnt help but find it) has The Flea House on the net as an ebook.
Not that Im recommending him, however this doesnt deny anything and in fact is very detailed.
kevin.b
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Post by kevin.b »

The thing about this chapter that caught my eye was the difference in physics , described as jewish physics.
E=MC2 really grates with me, I reckon its diss-information.
Einstein provided what he was told to, and thus locked everyone down along the wrong pathway.
How could anyone argue against an almost god like figure, especially if they were sending to him their theories, he and whoever was operating him could rubbish or intercept anything first.
That is a brilliant method to conceal from everyone something that perhaps needed shielding from them?
If in past history, this secret knowledge was employed and almost wiped the human race out of existance, then you can understand the reasoning behind such a move.
I was banned off the thunderbolts forum, I dared to suggest that it is an electrical universe, but has little to do with the twaddle of Einstein.
Yorkshire bluntness isn't appreciated in some quaters.

I am no mathmatician, therefore I cannot produce the alternative to E=MC2, but I reckon its to do with space compressing into mass, and that compression accelerates as mass accumulates, and it also depends upon the position of neighbouring mass and its resistance to the free flow of space through it relative to its position with the earth.
That everything is space, always has been, always will be, all to scale, always changing state, in other words,
In the blink of an eye, no-thing.
And No-thing is the secret, its the opposite to mass.

Space is no-thing, let space in, and there will be no-thing, so the ability to direct space inwards to the surface, will be a very closely guarded secret, wisely.
kevin
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Trickfox
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Post by Trickfox »

kevin.b wrote:The thing about this chapter that caught my eye was the difference in physics , described as jewish physics.
E=MC2 really grates with me, I reckon its diss-information.
Einstein provided what he was told to, and thus locked everyone down along the wrong pathway.
-
With all due respect Kevin, I believe you are incapable of disproving Einstein's work, nor are you capable of explaning a suitable mathematical basis with which you can prove wrong the Einsteinian formula for mass/energy.

Please don't underestimate the work of thousands of mathematicians, engineers and scientist. They have developed thousands of tools which you yourself are using to put forth your hobbit opinions in this forum.

Be kind to these giants.... They deserve as much respect as Dr. Brown.
You know that very well.

Trickfox
kevin.b
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Post by kevin.b »

Trickfox,
Can't explain how I KNOW, Einstein= plonker, sex mad given women and applause, but, wrong.
Right at the surface of this planet, but the surface of this planet is nothing compared to space, spooky actions at a distance=coward.
kevin
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Langley
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Post by Langley »

OK John Dower in Japan in War and Peace says this :

That Japan in 1943 asked Germany for a couple of tons of uranium and was told that 2 subs would bring it from Germany. One sub was sunk and the other never left. Then in May 1945 a U boat destined for Japan with a reported 560 kilograms of uranium oxide surrendered to the US in the Atlantic. The sub number was U 234.

But the Japanese atomic program was scattered, the scientists there were not coordinated, and most used the opportunity to escape service on the battlefield, and to study theoretical problems. There was no other option given the situation in Japan at the time. They succeed in duplicating the original 1938 fission experiment, possessed enough uranium to cover a postage stamp with the powder and built a centrifuge which they knew was about 100,000 rpm too slow to enrich uranium. Within the Japanese scientists there were many who opposed the fascist government and at least one was arrested by the Japanese Thought Police (name as translated from the Japanese)

So regardless of what might have been, fact is the US was the first. What else they discovered in the quest is whats interesting here.
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Post by Gewis »

Kevin,

I'm with Trickfox on this here. "This doesn't feel right," isn't an argument. At least not a very convincing one. I know you have a different concept of energy than the rest of us, which should tell you that when physicists are talking about energy, they mean something different than you do. From what I've read about electric universe cosmologies (plasma cosmology, in the same vein), there doesn't appear to be any contradiction between that and relativity. Moreover, the predictions of relativity, to include relativistic mass/energy increases, time dilation, and so forth, have been rigorously tested and measured.

Frankly, while your dowel might be sending you information that you believe conflicts with modern physics, the more likely explanation is that you're not interpreting correctly all the information you receive. The universe is a logical one, that is, it is rationally self-consistent. 'A' cannot be 'A' and 'non-A' at the same time. So, if we have two pieces of data that appear to contradict each other, the appearance is false and it is not the data, but our interpretations of the data that contradict. Because of the rigorous and continually repeated tests of Einstein's predictions, I'm inclined to believe that mass-energy equivalence is a pretty solid interpretation, and the more subjective art of dowsing leaves much more wiggle room.
"If we knew what we were doing, it wouldn't be called research!" -Einstein
Elizabeth Helen Drake
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conflicting information

Post by Elizabeth Helen Drake »

I keep falling back on that old saying ( paraphrasing here so please forgive)

That the true nature of intelligence is being able to hold two conflicting pieces of information and realize that they BOTH may be true.

Anybody know the quote and who originated it? So we can give proper credit? Elizabeth
Gewis
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Post by Gewis »

Langley,

That is some interesting reading, indeed! Imagine had the Germans devoted a Manhattan-sized effort to the project, the resolution of the war could have been far far messier. London had been bombed plenty, but as I understand it not like Dresden was, and definitely not like Hiroshima or Nagasaki. If London had been hit by a nuke prior to or even immediately after the D-Day invasion, the western front likely could have held a lot longer. I'm not sure what sorts of similar targets were in range on the eastern front. The United States likely would have nuked Germany if they'd had the weapon available during the European campaigns.

So much of history depends on little details, little turning points, such that it wouldn't have taken much to create a much different world than we have now. I believe the same is still true. What sort of knife's edge are we walking on today?

-Gewis
"If we knew what we were doing, it wouldn't be called research!" -Einstein
twigsnapper
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knifes edge

Post by twigsnapper »

Gewis.

Thing is , about knives.

They can be used to butter your daily bread

Or slit a persons throat.

All depends on the person with the knife.


twigsnapper
kevin.b
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Post by kevin.b »

Gewis,
The clever trick of the religion of Einstein, is that there is so much truth contained within his works.
As with the bible or the quaran, then the one who believes, buys the whole picture lock stock and barrell.
I am fortunate in that I did not know.
I needed not to know.
There will be millions of better able people in all areas that will calculate and quantify.
A free spirit needs the open plains to roam in.
kevin
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Langley
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Re: conflicting information

Post by Langley »

Elizabeth Helen Drake wrote:I keep falling back on that old saying ( paraphrasing here so please forgive)

That the true nature of intelligence is being able to hold two conflicting pieces of information and realize that they BOTH may be true.

Anybody know the quote and who originated it? So we can give proper credit? Elizabeth
Hi Elizabeth Martin Luther KIng Jr from what I remember of his book talked out a creative synthesis from two opposing positions. And to do that one has to be able to undertand opposing points of view. It was derived from Ghandi's non violent resistance.

But others might have said the same thing. A good part of King's book discussed Ghandi.
Langley
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Post by Langley »

Gewis wrote:Langley,

That is some interesting reading, indeed! Imagine had the Germans devoted a Manhattan-sized effort to the project, the resolution of the war could have been far far messier. ..... What sort of knife's edge are we walking on today?

-Gewis
Yes its very interesting Gewis. There's lots of pieces out there that expand on what authorative historians say. But what Dower comes up with in his "Japan at war and peace" is conventional confirmation that, weirdly, late in the war that long range X class sub set off from Europe to Japan with uranium. On route Germany surrendered. And of course, though Dower doesnt say it, (least in the publication I have access to) it doesnt take too much incredulity to think Groves would have been interested in the sub. And the X class long range subs were the type upon which the Guppy upgrade was based.

Ive heard it said that ordinary people are about 40 years behind the cutting edge in what is possible or modern or believable. So what is possible and going on now indeed.

Dower does reflect on the resources devoted to atomic weapons by the Axis. Germany was hamstrung in its suspicion of "Jewish" science, and initially believed they wouldnt be needed anyway. Japan proceeded on the basis that even if it wasnt ready for the current war it would be handy for the next.
In trhe case of Germany and the West it was civilians which pressed for the programs, in Japan it was the military. And among Japan's civilian scientific elite, there was, like within the Manhattan Project, a number of Leftist thinkers. So fascism itself from that perspective was unacceptable to some in the elite. The role of working class leftists in Japan during war is underreported. However that they existed is seen by McArthur's attempt to reduce their influence after the war in the course of innoculating Japan against Communism. er, as one interpretation.

Its hard to picture Hiesenberg as a rightist. But thats just a feeling. A lot of the Japanese nuclear scientists carried on after the war and produced that country's nuke power industry. But they were fully debriefed by the US. in 1945. And Sakae Shimizu wrote a sketch of WW2, in particular August 1945, when the expertise of his lab at Kyoto University was put to the test in Hiroshima. He went on to be a full lecturer and a member of IAEA.

So there were these programs. And some scientists carried onward with their research as if the war didnt exist. Dower "Taketani the left wing theorist was working out complex formulas in a jailhouse interrogation room belonging to the Thought Police and belately proving the basic prior calculations were wrong. Geologists were combing the empire and tearing their hair (for uranium ore). The navy was sunk. the air force was replacing bombs with young airmen in one way aircraft, the army was girding for a bamboo spear defence of the homeland - and it was calculated that a serious A bomb project would require one tenth of the electricity and one half of the critical military stocks of copper in Japan. The scientist charged with coming up with a separation method had a 24 hour guard ready to witness the behaviour of the invisible gas. The saturation firebombing of Japan was about to commence. ( and it did destroy components of this little and futile undertaking).

In Germany even if they had a bomb, they had no way of delivering it by air as the Allies ruled the air.

The Axis was stuffed. Fortunately. However the basic mind set continued in the USSR.
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Post by Mikado14 »

Gewis wrote:Kevin,

I'm with Trickfox on this here. "This doesn't feel right," isn't an argument. At least not a very convincing one. I know you have a different concept of energy than the rest of us, which should tell you that when physicists are talking about energy, they mean something different than you do. From what I've read about electric universe cosmologies (plasma cosmology, in the same vein), there doesn't appear to be any contradiction between that and relativity. Moreover, the predictions of relativity, to include relativistic mass/energy increases, time dilation, and so forth, have been rigorously tested and measured..

Still need the glossary of terms.

Gewis wrote:Frankly, while your dowel might be sending you information that you believe conflicts with modern physics, the more likely explanation is that you're not interpreting correctly all the information you receive. The universe is a logical one, that is, it is rationally self-consistent. 'A' cannot be 'A' and 'non-A' at the same time. So, if we have two pieces of data that appear to contradict each other, the appearance is false and it is not the data, but our interpretations of the data that contradict. Because of the rigorous and continually repeated tests of Einstein's predictions, I'm inclined to believe that mass-energy equivalence is a pretty solid interpretation, and the more subjective art of dowsing leaves much more wiggle room.
Agreed, kevin's assessment is based upon senses. However, all experiments begin with an idea or postulation of the results and until kevin can do that (qualitative and quantitative measurements), the wiggle room remains and it is only hypothesis.

Mikado
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Post by flowperson »

Langley wrote: Within the Japanese scientists there were many who opposed the fascist government and at least one was arrested by the Japanese Thought Police (name as translated from the Japanese)
Ah so...we get to the crux of the matter. I have done some reading in this matter and received hints that this was a common belief in the philosophies of the other two axis powers, Italy and Germany. But I was not aware of the literal naming of these unseen spys in the Japanese culture. Was this the single common thread that ran through the philosophical underpinnings of the "axis powers in the late 20's and the decade of the thirties ? Did we unknowingly import some of these people after WW II ? Operation Paperclip ? MK Ultra ?

A group of theologians I used to conference with defined it as a virus existing in the central nervous system of certain people. So Mr. T, while a knife may be used to butter bread or slit throats, perhaps it is not always the person with the knife who makes the choice out of his/her own volition. Perhaps it is the being who monitors and controls the thoughts of the knife wielders. I have long though that "Jack" was a traveler sent forth with a purpose to indiscriminately kill in timelines. Explains some of the random mass murders these days also.

Elizabeth/Langley...What Dr. King envisioned and what you are referring to was/is the foundational operational aspects of a basic complex system in an analog environment. Two forces in opposition are set against each other and circulate in identifiable patterns centering around a "strange attractor". It's how the weather operates. Of course the human arrogance of trying to supplant and replace such systems (which I may say were established at our origins and before) with digitized substitutes seems to be beginning to play havoc with our natural environments.

The standard text describing the earliest work in this area of understanding is a book by James Gleick, Chaos-Making A New Science. After he wrote the book and it became successful, his young son passed away and Gleick's legs and pelvis were broken in a terrible auto accident. And so the warfare continues on.

flow.... :wink:
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