Canadian Connections?

[Trickfox]

There appears to be plenty of information and rumour about the Canadians being involved in US Government projects. I believe I have found a starting point for a document search.

Abbreviated Development Plan, (U) AVRO Vertical Take-Off Aircraft, Weapon System 606A, USAF Contract# AF33(600)-39722, 26 June 1959, AVRO Aircraft Ltd, Malton, Ontario, Canada (NOTE: Although the 1958-59 re-direction of funds from this contract to help support the subsonic AVROCAR (USAF/Army Contract# AF33(600)-37496 development was detrimental, it should have nonetheless returned on-track by 3rd quarter 1960.)

I'll pursue this further to see where it leads

Trickfox

[grinder]

Trickfox'

You know in Pauls Chapter about Morgans meeting Mr. Stephenson in Nassau he mentioned the Rootes Group and how influential they were in making aircraft and the thought came to me suddenly. " Were there connections between the Rootes Group as it was in 1958 and this AVRO thing.t this Avrocar? I had to laugh actually. So they transferred this project to the United States Air Force .... and we bought it? Now that figures! I'll bet the Canadians laughed all the way to the bank.

Which, I am sorry. But its about the most ridiculous looking and acting thing I have ever seen. I've seen those test films of it wobbling along about three feet off of the ground, if that. I just can't imagine thats what Dr. Brown would have been involved in, so I suspect a cover for something more substantial. Good work Trickfox. Finding solid bricks are important when you are trying to build a solid case of information.

grinder

[Victoria Steele]

I have still be wondering why it was that Dr. Brown ended up in Germany when he did.

OK gang. Here are some of my open conclusions.

I have spent some time following Nick Cooks train of thought and I find this interesting. He mentioned a man named LUSAR so I started looking in that direction. (Now understand I can see why Paul is so slow to announce what conclusions he has reached because there is just so much STUFF out there. I didn't call it what I thought of calling it because not all of it actually stinks. But certainly not much of it has solid underpinnings. Just so you all know what kind of ground I am standing on.Here I am in the barnyard with evidence all around me, still looking for that pony, as Paul has said .... " There has to be a pony in here somewhere!") But hang in there with me please.

Apparently this Lusor was a German engineer who wrote up his remembrances of projects he was involved in during the war. The actual patents he refers to in his book had been either destroyed or captured by the Allies or the Russians (or, I am beginning to suspect .... that "Ragtag private army" that was mentioned before).. so what he wrote about was reconstructed by memory.

Now, if I have taken a wrong step so far, somebody out there PLEASE correct me.

Apparently LUSOR wrote about a "Flying Disc" that others have readily dubbed an early "Flying Saucer". Some of the things rotated, but one design by a man by the name of Dr. Richard Miethe, did not.

Now the only reason I bring his name up is that according to what other people have written Miethe eventually ended up working for the AVRO company of Canada.

I just don't believe what that scientist was working on and what the Canadians eventually turned over to the United States was the same thing! It was rumored through Lusors writings I guess that tests in Germany had seen THAT thing fly at speeds of upwards of 1250 mph and reach altitudes over 8 miles. Can any of you see the AVROCAR doing that? As grinder said earlier the thing wobbled four feet off the ground. Ridiculous.

Of course note that I said rumored. So that whole story might have been disinformation. Anybody out there have something more to add?

Victoria

[Victoria Steele]

If this "ragtag army" did happen to get to this information/ material first, how did they keep it "private" instead of having to turn it over to either the Russians, the Americans or the British? How do you manage to do that?

Its like football. Who had the damn pigskin? Victoria

[Mikado14]

If this "ragtag army" did happen to get to this information/ material first, how did they keep it "private" instead of having to turn it over to either the Russians, the Americans or the British? How do you manage to do that?

Its like football. Who had the damn pigskin? Victoria

Just fly it out over the polar route, very fast, very high.

Mikado

[Trickfox]

Look carefully everyone there were TWO contract numbers that the air force was working on. The second project received funds diverted from the first project. The second project was the flimsy Avro car, but what exactly was the first one?

Secondly, the only pertinent information in my post was the DATES, and CONTRACT NUMBERS. Everything else is heresay.

I'm going to dig for NAMES associated with those dates and contract numbers. That way I can proceed with knowing where the rest of the official documentation is (if there is any left) and of course if there is any classified materials still in existence. If so I'm going to pursue with a FOIA canadian equivalent to obtain them.

I can only get a few clues from the net and I can't trust them until I see original documentation. Furthermore the only technical issue I'm mentioning in my requests for info is the the electrostatic voltage experiments. I'm not asking for anything having to do with "flying ANYTHING". no weapons, no aircraft, just " high Voltage Electrostatics". These type of experiments require specialized environments and equipment (including Vacuum chambers) and this is an issue some people will notice and remember.

If I start asking about flying discs, I will imediatly be pigeon-holed in the crack-pot section of the inquiry process. I want to do this carefully so I'm proceeding the best way I can with solid foundation (as grinder so gracefully noticed).

Trickfox.

[Elizabeth Helen Drake]

Absolutely Trickfox! I agree with you 100 percent that you have to avoid even mention of "flying anything" because you are right. Automatically you would get shoved to the side.

But high voltage work and vacuum chambers? .... well that might disclose something. (Sarbacher was linked with that, as well) and remember that his name has already been linked with Wilbert Smith. But you are absolutely right! What we need is solid documented evidence.

(One note of caution here. Remember that Stephenson was quoted as saying something like " Never trust documents". So be aware, that you may also be running into the occasional "planted" disinformation.

BUT

As Paul has been told over and over, it doesn't matter how secret a project may be or have been, or how competent the disinformation, people still make mistakes. And those mistakes can be pieces of bread on your trail. You just have to have the eyes for it and the heart for the search and I am SO pleased Trickfox that you have put your shoulder to this wheel.

We will have so much to talk about in Vegas!

And this is a wonderful example of how each of us has capabilities that will shed more and more light on this grand mystery. Nobody but you Trickfox would be able to do what you are about to do. Thanks in advance. Elizabeth

[grinder]

This is really strange. Have you noticed the way this discussion has formed up?

On one side we have Trickfox going for " The facts, just the facts" (GREAT TRICKFOX!)

and on the other side you have the hmmmmm responses.

Such as mine when I read Mikados response to Victorias "how do you hide that football? He said " over the polar route, very high and very fast" and my only response was almost the totally irrational SURE! THATS HOW THEY DID IT. STRAIGHT TO CANADA.

But of course, to make that even more plausible, you have to believe that the Germans had gotten far enough along to make that kind of flight possible. So so we even start to believe the rumors out there?

RUMOR HAD IT according to some things I have read on the Internet that this "disc" was 138 feet in diameter and could move at over 1250 miles per hour. Three minutes to gain altitude. Yeah, fly the sucker right outta there. grinder

[ladygrady]

Oh grinder!

Next thing I will be hearing from you is that the Nazis had hidden underground bases in the Arctic and that they had flying saucers and all kinds of other things at their disposal!

try looking at this

http://www.ufoinfo.com/news/secrets.shtml

You tell me what part of this might be true, what might be lies, what might be wishful thinking? I think that the fellow writing the article gives full weight to all that is out there. Perhaps in all of the wild stories there is a grain of truth that has been carefully buried to sprout later?

grady

[Elizabeth Helen Drake]

grady! Its been a long time. welcome back to you too.

I think that people can see pretty quickly, if they are at all familiar with the extended conjectures that float around the words "anti-gravity" and "extra-terrestrial" and UFOs that you see a wide range of rather wide eyed and empty headed comments out there. There are stories of lizard like aliens, us government and alien "treaties", my next to favorite is the idea that the moon was towed into place by some sort of giant UFO. There seems to be a flavor for everybody.

But in the careful research that this book on Townsend Brown deserves Paul has set an early standard which I think he has explained to you but I am going to repeat for the newcomers to this group. He uses the analogy of a bowling ball rolling down the lane. Object is to keep it in the middle, aimed at the pins, which is , in our case, the TRUTH. Its easy, he has explained to get drawn off that lane and start for that gutter. These topics are enticing. You can almost hear the sirens call on some of them. But notice and appreciate that Paul has resisted those calls.

Now, I have to admit. I get drawn away from the main lane sometimes because it is so much my nature to just go look. Paul is stuck trying to pound out some words that make sense and I am out there investigating ....( huh .... currently ..... the RUMOR about the POSSIBLILITY that the technology might simply have been FLOWN out of Germany to Canada in 1945! But thats just me and Mikado, Victoria and grinder, Trickfox and Mark C and I am sure some others .... and we can afford to go off on this mental tangent without losing ground. You just never knowthough.)

Most of the time I come back from my trip through the mental giggleweeds looking sort of beaten up and sheepish. Paul usually needs to know what I have found that he can actually use .... and most of the time the answer is just a shrug. But you know, it will only take one time to find a clue that will make all the difference.

So its nice to see your post Lady Grady. Thanks for your imput. Elizabeth

[Trickfox]

-How you have allways looked but so rarely commented in our forum....

It shows us that you care.... and that you want to let us know that you have yourself been concerned so much with this part of the puzzle.

All of these issues, and perhaps a few romantic pieces of the story.

Is that all?

Then, my dear Lady Grady. I suspect you know exactly where the little diamond is in the link you supplied.

I suppose I will end up finding it sometime soon. This is so much fun, I just hope and wish it will help Paul. I'm sure Elizabeth and others feel the same way I do.


Trickfox

[Mark Culpepper]

Have any of you had a chance yet to view what I think is commonly called " The Bahnson tapes." These are views of Dr. Brown at the Bahnson Lab in Winston Salem in 1957 (I think)

I sat with my brother the other day and watched it and I was struck by several things. Number one, if you didn't have an inkling of what was happening the pictures sure don't help you out very much. There is no sound and no real reference except for a calendar which gets pretty boring to watch as the dates get circled and marked off. There are also some individuals which are featured in some sections which seem very attentive to what Dr. Brown is saying to them. Who are they? and what is he saying anyway.

There is a VERY interesting blackboard discussion where the superstructure of the "Adamski style scout ship" flying saucer is prominently in view. What the heck?

Two. There are kids featured in some of the scenes which puzzled the beejuzus out of me. I mean this is supposed to be important and probably pretty secret stuff and you have boy scotts mugging through part of it? Of course these are scenes that are cut in somehow. I don't believe it was part of the day-to-day record.

Then my brother explained (to his knowledge) that the original taping was done by Bahnsons young daughter and it was simply entitled " Daddys lab" I supposed the mugging boyscouts were her brothers off on a visit to the facility and she captured the moment and it somehow got past all the other eyes that might have been on it. A crumb left on the floor for others in the future to find?

I imagine the idea that it was all put together as sort of a family film is close to the truth but neither he nor I know for sure so I am putting out the question to that little girl (nice lady by now, I am sure).

Ms Bahnson,

is that how it happened? and do you remember anything about that day? Or anything about Dr. Brown? In the sections where he is pictured he seems quite happy and in a couple of the scenes I noticed that they were pouring champagne, which tells me it must have been a good day at the lab. I understand that it was not his normal beverage!

It was really good that you were there and I am hoping that you could perhaps add some more information to what is there on the screen. I know that it would be impossible to talk about the technical parts of it but I am really more interested about the personal side of what was happening on that day.

Did your brothers take up the work your father was interested in or perhaps you? Forgive me if Paul has already asked you this. It just struck me that your Dad looked like he was very proud of what was happening there and I am sure that he was pleased that you took the interest that you did to be there with the camera. Mark C.

[ladygrady]

Trickfox,

How nice to be missed. Perhaps this little bit of information might add to your pile of puzzle pieces. I would give you a URL but unfortuneately this information happens to be just in my head so you will have to doublecheck me here.

As I understand it at one time A.V. Roe was the third largest business in Canada. I know that when Dr. Brown was in North Carolina at the Bahnson Company in 1958 AV Roe employed some 53,000 people and were at the top of their industrial strength and power. They controlled some 44 different companies. Roe went into business in 1945 and were, I think the word properly used was "divested", in 1962. Defunct would be another good word. There is hardly a trace of A.V. Roe now.

Are you sure that all this fuss would have been over a simple propulsion system? I am seeing the ramifications of some of Dr. Browns words, and frankly my dear Trickfox, I think that there is a much bigger fish out there. What was the scene in Jaws.?" "We need a bigger boat!" grady

[Mark Culpepper]

OK, I get to be the one to jump in here. Could it be that we have all been talking about "Time Travel " here. Or seeing the traces of a program aimed at that eventuality. What could possibly be bigger in the development of mans history here on Earth? Thats a pretty damned big fish and maybe Lady grady is right. Maybe we do need a bigger boat!

I decided that I would see what Nick Cook ventured to say about " time travel" (Knowing how scruptiously he also tries to avoid the stigma that "wild talk" can bring down on your head. Time travel and antigravity are the two words that can pretty much set you aside if you are not careful. So I was amused when I discovered that the phrase "Time Travel" was indeed listed in his index. And I found it on page 101 of "The Hunt for Zero Point" What he says is interesting, considering all the places we have been on this forum. I especially think of that office in Homestead Florida where a young Morgan is asking Dr. Brown " Is Time Travel possible? And the answer he got back, according to Paul, was YES, not just YES, but YES, IN YOUR LIFETIME..

"The third experiment, he continued (quoting Marc Millis, the man who according to Cook ran the " Breakthorugh Propulsion Physics Program for NASA) would set out to examine the unproven link between electromagnetism and gravity and its possible impace on space-time. Perturbations of space time not only promised propulsive antigravitational effect but opened up other more esoteric possibilities, such as time travel. I asked Millis if this stuff was for real and for a moment he looked unsure. The mere mention of time travel and we were suddenly into science-fiction territory. It was enough to put any serious scientist on the defensive. " The immediate utility is not obvious" He said stiffly " But its like a foot in the door" The fourth experiment looked at superluminal quantum tunneling, faster than light speed ................. and of course he goes on into a VERY interesting discussion. Buy the book guys if you haven't already. Its pretty darned interesting. BUT NOT HALF AS INTERESTING AS WHAT WE HAVE BEEN TALKING ABOUT. Mark C.

[Trickfox]

Dear Lady Grady.

I have been laughing off my chair at your great response. Thank you for lending me your ladder. This forum is indeed graced with such great friendship and beauty in character. For the sake of such friendship I will admit that we had better go back for a bigger boat, maybe even a submarine. So long as it stays in the "discussion stage", I am willing to let the centurions decide.

Please remember that my speciality is in "Communication theory" and "Boundary layer effects", and Not "Flying Saucers".

I believe there were usefull aviation techniques and perhaps Vacuum Space propulsion systems but the words "Adamski flying saucer" do not necessarilly apply.

Some people cannot understand that we already know that the bowling ball is not going to hit in the gutters because, -at the very least; we know where the gutters are. We have math and Science, and the Historical "Chain of Evidence" which will be supported by rigorous document control procedures.

I happen to know that Dr. Brown assigned serial numbers to his patent applications, and I knew who the Patent Attorney was for one of his application.

I believe there is no reason to upset the sharks anyway, we just want to observe their reaction around the great orca whales.

If there is any evidence in bread crumbs please be assured that we little birds will try and pick them up before the big sharks can swim up to it and swallow us both up.