Chapter 62 - Meet the Browns of Ka-Lae-Hau

[twigsnapper]

Langley,

You said " But there's something very Pugwash about Brown; and he was very aware of what not to talk about.

If they could kill your reputation, and hence career, via information control, well, one had better have a reputation which originated and propagated through circles of power other than that of government."

Absolutely Langley. Your words " through circles of power OTHER than that of government" Hold that thought tightly.

And I am going to twist your use of Pugwash a bit here and suggest to you that similarities could be drawn in another way. Only Townsend Brown would have been " Tom the Cabin Boy" and the " Captain Pugwash" would have been the United States Navyat Pearl Harbor in the early fifties, or some representatives of that venerable service. You will soon see the similarities.

And Paul, the paths seem tangled for you now but actually they are not. Great elevation is needed to see the whole picture and I suggest too thats all that Dr. Brown was doing. He needed the things that gave him that sight and that ability. Its all a coordinated effort, though at this point its hard to see the coordination. Remember what Morgan said about that picture of Dr. Brown pointing to the sky. Why the effort to go in that direction when you know where his heart was? Because it had to be done. simple! <g> twigsnapper

[grinder]

Hey Langley,

Something very Pugwash about Brown? Can you translate that for me? I have to admit never having seen that word before!


And Mr. Twigsnapper, looking up Captain Pugwash right after this because if I have learned anything on this forum, comments from you are not ... random. " Tom the Cabin Boy?" WHAT? Showing my ignorance here on both fronts!

well, this? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Captain_Pugwash

[edit] Captain Pugwash
The pompous but likeable captain of the Black Pig. Although he boasts of being the "bravest buccaneer", he is actually quite cowardly and stupid. His greed often gets him into trouble. Despite all this, he usually wins the day - either with the help of Tom the Cabin Boy or through sheer luck. Strangely enough, despite being a pirate, he is rarely seen committing any acts of piracy.

and then this?
Tom the Cabin Boy
It might be argued that without Tom, Pugwash would have been sunk long ago. He is the most intelligent and resourceful member of the crew, the only one who can cook and the only one who can actually sail a ship. Although Pugwash would never admit it, Tom's ability to think up schemes is probably the only thing that prevents him from being a total failure as a pirate. Tom is an expert concertina player, and part of his repertoire is the Captain Pugwash theme.

grinder

[Langley]

Hey Langley,

Something very Pugwash about Brown? Can you translate that for me? I have to admit never having seen that word before.

Hi Grinder. I was thinking Pugwash as in the anti bomb (as opposed to anti nuclear - 2 different things in the beginning) movement

"THE Russell-Einstein Manifesto was issued on 9th July 1955 in London at a Press Conference held in Caxton Hall.

A few days after the publication of the Russell-Einstein Manifesto Mr. Cyrus Eaton sent a letter to Bertrand Russell offering to finance the Conference of scientists which was called for in the Manifesto, and suggesting that it be held in Pugwash, Nova Scotia. This offer was not taken up because at that time it was planned to hold the Conference in India, where Prime Minister Jawaharlal Nehru was very keen on the Conference of scientists and had offered hospitality for it.

It took about a year before the plans for the meeting in New Delhi were formulated. Russell asked the two other British signatories of the Manifesto, Cecil Powell and Joseph Rotblat, to help him in the preparation of the Conference. Eric Burhop, who collaborated with Powell in the World Federation of Scientific Workers, was also involved.

In discussions between these four, a preliminary agenda and a list of invitees, to make a total of about 20 participants, were prepared. It was agreed that the letter should be signed by Russell on behalf of the signatories of the Russell-Einstein Manifesto. The first step, therefore, was for Russell to write to the signatories to obtain their agreement to the draft of the letter of invitation; these letters were dispatched on 6th July 1956.

It took several weeks for the replies to come in. Eventually, out of the nine signatories (apart from Russell) who were alive at that time, seven agreed; the only two to decline were both Americans: Percy Bridgman and Hermann Muller (but the latter subsequently changed his mind, and came to the 1957 Conference in Pugwash).

Letters of invitation as agreed by the signatories were sent on 29 August to 27 scientists; a few weeks later a further 8 scientists were invited. The 35 invitees were as follows:

* Adrian, Haddow* and Hinshelwood (UK)
* Beadle, Bronk, Compton, Oppenheimer, Rabinowitch* and Weisskopf (USA)
* Peter Kapitza, Nesmeyanov*, Nuzhdin, Oparin*, Sissakian*, Skobeltzyn* and Topchiev* (USSR)
* Hahn, Heisenberg and Rajewski* (FRG)
* de Broglie and Lacassagne* (France)
* Tomonaga* and Tsuzuki* (Japan)
* Kothari* and Krishnan (India)
* Amaldi (Italy)
* Niels Bohr (Denmark)
* Burgess (Netherlands)
* de Castro* (Brazil)
* de Hevesy* (Sweden)
* Hertz* (GDR)
* Li-Tze-Kuang* (China)
* Oliphant* (Australia)
* Schweitzer (Gabon )
* Thirring* (Austria)

Eighteen of these (their names are asterisked) accepted. Those who refused gave as reasons previous engagements or ill-health. Only a very few doubted the value of the proposed Conference.

From among the Russell-Einstein signatories, five (Infeld, Pauling, Powell, Rotblat and Yukawa) expressed willingness to participate in the Conference in New Delhi. Thus, there would have been a total of 23 scientists, roughly the number planned by the organizers.

Although in the letter of invitation, the latter half of December 1956 was given as the date for the meeting, in subsequent letters the date was fixed for 9 - 12 January 1957.

In the event, the plans for the New Delhi meeting had to be aborted. The uneasy political situation following the Suez and Hungary crises was one reason. The other was the failure to secure funds for travel expenses. Consequently, letters were sent on 22 November 1956 to all those who accepted, informing them of the cancellation of the Conference.

It was at that stage that the initial offer made by Cyrus Eaton was recalled. In an exchange of cables it was quickly agreed that the Conference could be held in July 1957 in Pugwash. Another set of letters, this time including a draft agenda, was despatched on 8 February 1957. It was addressed to those of the earlier invitees to New Delhi who had either accepted or had refused because of previous engagements. In addition, 18 new invitations were sent to the following: Massey and Waddington (UK); Bethe, Harrison-Brown, Cavers, Doty, Selove, Smyth, Szilard, Urey and Weaver (USA); Kuzin (USSR)*, BrockChisholm (Canada)*, Chou-Pei-Yuan (China); Rehberg (Denmark); Butenandt (FRG); Ogawa (Japan); and Danysz (Poland). At the request of Mr. Cyrus Eaton another Canadian, John Foster, was also invited.

Several of those who have replied in the affirmative to the invitation to Pugwash (Haddow, Hertz, Nesmeyanov and Waddington) subsequently withdrew, mainly due to ill-health. Of the Russell-Einstein signatories, Infeld and Pauling also had to withdraw.

http://www.pugwash.org/about/conference.htm

It was a collection of scientists who were against the use of atomic bombs.

They investigated and protested the effects of these weapons, and were a thorn in the side of Teller (US) and Titterton (Australia).

Through Paul's book, I have found the story of Gunn. It is a story the routine sources ignore. The history of the Manhattan Project is incomplete without the Naval Research Labs contribution. esp the Uranium enrichment breakthrough at the Philidephia Naval ShipYard. The popular mythos of the Philly Experiment thus appears a cover story.

Brown worked with Gunn. Brown's radiation biology lab in Los Angeles seems to be an excersize in competing with Tellers own biological effects research (which was used in a controlled way to show the bombs were safe) . The Pugwash scientists presented findings which aimed to contradict Teller, they were convinced that Teller was lying, controlling information, and the detonation of bombs in theatmosphere was unsafe.

I think given the level of animosity between the NRL and the Manhattan Project, Brown would have been doing what he could for the Navy experts, and that the Caroline Group, with its special relationship with the NRL, would have assisted. The members of Pugwash held a humanistic scientific worldview which made it compatible with the Caroline group.

The clincher for me is that 1. Brown, by continuing his radiation/biology research with Shank was probably protected by Gunn and the Naval hierarchy, by the Pugwash scientists, and by the Caroline Group, rendering any attempt by Teller to stop him ineffective. 2. Teller had to access Brown in order to access the knowledge Teller needed. What was happening was a turning of the tables. by 1962 Pugwash, via particularly Pauling, succeeded in convincing Kennedy to go for the Limited Test Ban Treaty.

When one looks up Gunn and his interests, it fits Brown's intestests and undertakings perfectly.

What Brown was doing in Germany in WW2 was probably in competition with Groves, who was MED, and Brown was working primarily for NRL and Caroline. The paper on Gunn and the Naval research into fission documents the tension between the Navy and the Manhattan Project.

Hi Twigsnapper. Wow, none of this is new to you is it? Im quite blown away. I never had an inkling. Groves was a nasty man I think. Without the NRL Groves might have failed.

Are you saying that Brown, as the cabin boy was the front for the Captain, so the NRL kept its hat in the ring via the Teller/Brown relationship?

I am thinking here of Teller's visit to Brown, Teller's pausing before the ion generator, etc. And I personally at that point leap off into the Starfish Prime Project.

[Trickfox]

Fascinating information Langley, What a great crowd we have here...
It's like a gathering of individuals with a sense of "Global Awareness".
I certainly hope that someone else out there will speak up regarding these incidences in Dr. Brown's past.

Thanks again for contributing Langley.

Trickfox

[grinder]

I agree Trickfox that this is a wonderful and unique forum.

Langley, When you said to Mr. Twigsnapper that you were amazed that he didn't know about "Pugwash" I need to point out that it was ME who didn't know. Mr. Twigsnapper just pointed out another avenue.(edit here: upon rereading what you said Langley I see that you meant that Mr. Twigsnapper DID in fact know all of that. I just misread you, sorry. I was coming in too quickly to Mr. Twigsnappers defense, which of course was not needed!)

I am sure that he does understand but he took that "Pugwash" reference and turned it into something useful for his discussion and the information that springs from that should be very interesting.

I personally think he is saying here that " Tom the Cabin Boy" was the brilliance behind some of the Naval minds at the time. ( and if the reference to Captain Pugwash is an actual person, boy, thats not good or complimentary.)

I am not sure what the story actually is yet. Paul is probably writing it. At least I hope so. Not a word from him. Means he has his nose to the grindstone? Maybe?

Thanks Langley for the information on the Pugwash scientists. Lends a better look at what was actually happening at the time. grinder

[Elizabeth Helen Drake]

Everybody,

I noticed that Mr. Twigsnapper had said to Langley


Absolutely Langley. Your words " through circles of power OTHER than that of government" Hold that thought tightly.

THROUGH CIRCLES OF POWER OTHER THAN THAT OF GOVERNMENT

then this:

"Brown worked with Gunn. Brown's radiation biology lab in Los Angeles seems to be an excersize in competing with Tellers own biological effects research (which was used in a controlled way to show the bombs were safe) . The Pugwash scientists presented findings which aimed to contradict Teller, they were convinced that Teller was lying, controlling information, and the detonation of bombs in theatmosphere was unsafe.

I think given the level of animosity between the NRL and the Manhattan Project, Brown would have been doing what he could for the Navy experts, and that the Caroline Group, with its special relationship with the NRL, would have assisted. The members of Pugwash held a humanistic scientific worldview which made it compatible with the Caroline group"

THE CAROLINE GROUP WITH ITS SPECIAL RELATIONSHIP WITH THE NRL WOULD HAVE ASSISTED.

An interesting observation there Langley. I think that Mr. Twigsnapper might say to you again " hold on to that thought".

Paul is working hard on the next chapter so we are sort of on our own to sort some of this out. But I think that this next chapter will give you ALOT of new fodder for discussion. And I think that you are already on a fair course here.

Thanks so much, all of you for the input you have offered. SO VERY MUCH APPRECIATED AND VALUED.

And here is a challenge to others out there perhaps still just reading and not commenting.

Perhaps there is a scientist out there with a background in the nuclear navy? Perhaps he would have a special reason to step into the conversation right now? Perhaps he recognizes that his memories of Catalina Island would be welcomed? just as a favor from a special Aunt? Elizabeth

[ladygrady]

For those of you who are unfamiliar

http://www.pugwash.org/


Thanks Langley. grady

[ladygrady]

Langley,

I have thought that the conclusions you are reaching here are pretty much spot -on but then I thought, hold on, perhaps this fellow is reaching a little too far. What is the basis for these conclusions? You speak with an authority which if figured could also stand up to some scutiny. and so I selected this statement of yours................ to test out.

"I think given the level of animosity between the NRL and the Manhattan Project, Brown would have been doing what he could for the Navy experts, and that the Caroline Group, with its special relationship with the NRL, would have assisted. The members of Pugwash held a humanistic scientific worldview which made it compatible with the Caroline group"

Seemed to me here that you had assumed that there was indeed a " special relationship" between the NRL and the Caroline Group. And I thought. Has there indeed been a longstanding relationship? Its a bit of a conjecture.

And then I remember reading Pauls chapter about Dr. Brown on the submarine (as a member of the NRL in the 1930s !!) when that submarine was lent to a Dutch scientist for a special voyage. Now excuse me, but I would almost guarantee that we are looking straight at a Caroline operation even if at the time Dr. Brown was not aware of it. https://www.ttbrown.com/defying_gravity ... tlast.html

He and another man helped save this scientists life after an earthquake in Cuba and ever since then those two men seemed " guided" somehow in their careers. (Harry Hess was the other individual.) Read about it all please. I believe in that information we will find the confirmation for Langelys assumption here that there was a " relationship" between the NRL and the Caroline Group.

And in Pauls pages you just might find one of those nearly invisible threads. One of my main questions has always been " Just how does a private individual get the United States Navy to donate a submarine for a particular cruise.? My conclusion was " Be a Caroline member". see what I mean? here is a part of that chapter.

"The Navy-Princeton Expedition in 1932 was one of a decade-long series of submarine voyages — most conducted under the auspices of the Dutch Navy — on which Dr. Meinesz had measured gravity fluctuations at sea. He was particularly intrigued when he discovered anomalous gravity effects in the vicinity of the deep trenches that cut through the ocean floor in some places. In one voyage during the mid-1920s, he detected anomalous gravity belts running parallel to the deep-sea trenches in the vicinity of the Indonesian Islands, which phenomenon are known to this day as the “Meinesz Belts.â€

[grinder]

I have been trying to stand off a little from this story because I have learned that I have a tendency to get way too involved and when that starts happening I lose track of some of the things that I should see.

Grady, I agree with what you said and submit too that I believe that Townsend Brown was " hand picked" by the Caroline Group. ( for you newbies out there I call them the " Caroline Group because thats what Paul dubbed them and you have to call them something but I have NO IDEA what name they might go by, if they even refer to themselves with a name.)

But something sort of parallel happened with Dr. Brown I think. When he was finally " recruited" it wasn't only as a scientist. If that had been the case I think that the Group would have stuck him in a lab somewhere and that would have been it. But ever since he and William Stephenson crossed paths onboard the Caroline in Nassau Dr. Brown I believe shouldered a special responsibility for communication and what makes it even more difficult, security for that communication! And that led him astray I think from his pure work on gravity.

I have a feeling that the Caroline Group reaches out for the members that it needs at a particular time and I think what it saw in Dr. Brown was a person who could get things done, was not all theory and who could wear many hats at one time. He was perfect for their needs at the time.
and even Paul mentions it at the end of that chapter.

Paul wrote:
"Between Brown’s performance as the science officer on the expedition, and his exploits in rescuing Dr. Meinesz from the rubble of the Casa Grande , an even more significant impression was made. Dr. Vening Meinesz, it turns out was a man with friends in high places, and he applied his quiet influence in the background to recommend Lieutenant Brown for his next assignment at sea." .................. (which was his entry into the Caroline Group.)

Just my thoughts late at night again. grinder

[Elizabeth Helen Drake]

Silly me. I thought that the expression " Weapons of Mass Destruction" was relatively new ... as in President Bush and his cohorts. Discouraging to find that phrase here in this letter sent out to the "Pugwash Scientists" in 1956. http://www.pugwash.org/about/conference.htm

The object of the enclosed draft letter is to invite a number of distinguished scientists to meet as a committee for the purpose of making an appraisal of the present dangers arising from weapons of mass destruction. I hope it will be generally agreed by all those who have been working towards this end, that, to be effective, such a committee should be drawn from scientists of the highest integrity who are widely representative of different political and other opinions. A proper balance in this respect appears to be of central importance.


Ah, thats .... discouraging. Elizabeth

[kevin.b]

Elizabeth Helen Drake,
Always remember that you can't always believe the banner that certain people hoist up.
This is a 1950s film of Pugwash called " Shot across the bows."
Tom remember was sailing with the pirates, under the skull and bones flag.
That doesn't actually mean they were the badies though.
Maybe Tom was after a ship full of gold?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=czbUaxmcYR8
Sorry you can't go to the flic's, its a bit silly anyway.
Kevin

[Langley]

Elizabeth Helen Drake,
Always remember that you can't always believe the banner that certain people hoist up.
This is a 1950s film of Pugwash called " Shot across the bows."
Tom remember was sailing with the pirates, under the skull and bones flag.
That doesn't actually mean they were the badies though.
Maybe Tom was after a ship full of gold?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=czbUaxmcYR8
Sorry you can't go to the flic's, its a bit silly anyway.
Kevin

Well the skull and bones is interesting. As well as pirates, it was a Templar thing wasnt it?

[Langley]

Langley,

I have thought that the conclusions you are reaching here are pretty much spot -on but then I thought, hold on, perhaps this fellow is reaching a little too far. What is the basis for these conclusions? You speak with an authority which if figured could also stand up to some scutiny. and so I selected this statement of yours................ to test out.

And so you should. It was a construct on my part based on Paul's book and what I have learnt about the Manhattan Project etc.

I dont know anything first hand. I have a friend who is a Prof and lecturer who is into WW2 and the A bomb. He, as part of specialisation in war economies, or the economies of war, interviewed ship yard workers in a yard bang opposite the Philly one, but his sources are now all dead. He hadnt heard of the Naval atomic propulsion program or its uranium enrichment plant at Philidephia (one day I'll spell it right). So it was a pretty tight secret.

Im thinking, OK
Brown was racing around Germany trying to beat both the Russians and Groves to the German scientists of interest???

If Groves got them first, the Navy wouldnt have access to them. The Army (Manhattan Project and then AEC and Teller were into bombs. The Navy was into propulsion and energy.) I think Brown's activities later in Los Angeles was a sort of thumbing his nose at Teller and the AEC, who operated in deep secrecy, with high classifications on all things, particularly biological effects. Brown opens a radiation/biological effects lab and in effects dares the AEC to invoke National Security clauses to shut him down. Which of course, the AEC was restrained from doing. The AEC equivalent of what Brown was attempting to research in 48 was not declassified until the early 80s, and not widely available until Clinton and his Openness Executive Order. And anyway Brown always kept his mouth shut.

Gunn, Brown and Rickover. Groves, Teller. Hmm

"ON SEPTEMBER 30, 1954 the United States Navy commissioned the USS Nautilus (SSN-571), the world’s first nuclear powered vessel. Credit for making Nautilus a reality goes to Admiral Hyman G. Rickover, who, as a captain, was assigned to the Bureau of Ships in 1947 to look into the potential of nuclear propulsion. He later became head of the Division of Reactor Development at the U.S. Atomic Energy Commission and Director of the Naval Reactors Branch in the Bureau of Ships.

While Rickover’s engineering and managerial skills provided the impetus for the creation of Nautilus, the concept of a nuclear powered submarine dates back to 1939 and Ross Gunn, a research physicist and technical advisor at the Naval Research Laboratories." JOSEPH – JAMES AHERN

And that's why Groves/Teller/AEC couldnt act. The Navy had a legitimate program of National importance which over rode any restriction which they might have wanted to put on it. Indeed had they, they could be the ones accused of acting against the National interest. You have to know the biological effects if you have a sub crew living in close quarters with a reactor. And as Paul points out all through the book, the Caroline Influence is there all the way through. And thats why Brown could get away with it and with working with a person (Shank) who signed the Silizard petition (and hence considered by Groves and Teller as a "Security Risk" (See Silizard references : FBI interviews, Leo Silizard, Einstein, Oppenhiemer etc all considered suspect. Oppy being stripped of his security clearance when Oppy opposed the H bomb. Teller saw to him alright. ). If virtually anyone in government employ had started such a lab in competition to Projects Gabriel and Shunshine, Teller would have run them out of town. "Belittling" and harrassment was the official tactic of the AEC at that time, but Brown seemed immune. And I assume the Nautilus was the result, missing, sadly, the silent electro magnetic hydrodynamic drive system.

The Nautilus was screwed. It wasnt yet time to risk the silent drive.

[Elizabeth Helen Drake]

Langley,

Conjection or not I believe you have hit it square.

There was a feeling of " thumbing his nose" going on with Townsend Brown upon his return from Germany in 1945 and then Hawaii in the early 50s.I hadn't really known enough about what was going on in the background but you have certainly helped bring that into focus!

Putting out plans for a big lab to be named " Townsend Brown Foundation Radiation Laboratory" ( plans to build on 10 acres of prime and beautiful Dana Point real estate could be looked upon as a big nose thumb by the people you mentioned. But I hadn't really explored WHY they couldn't move against Dr. Brown " thumbing his nose at Groves" I agree with your thoughts, would have been a decidedly provocative move on Dr. Browns part.

And something very dramatic and interesting happened at what many have dubbed the " Pearl Harbor Demonsration". ( which I believe is the subject of Pauls next chapter) You and Paul are running parallel right now, so I am anxious to see him post that chapter and to see your reaction to it ( and of course, everybody elses too!) ( THURSDAY ??? Paul??? I thought I would throw that in there and save Victoria the trouble!).

I believe that some of the attitude you noted (from TTB and others around him) was drawn from events that happened at that demonstration and some of it I believe was drawn EXACTLY from the forces that you have mentioned here. Your background source is excellent and your interpretation of it wonderful. Thankyou.

Elizabeth

[Elizabeth Helen Drake]

I suspect Kevin that there are many Pirates in this story!

Dr. Brown liked the idea of being a pirate on the warm island sands.

that idea apparently was very special to Morgan himself in this story and even in the music that winds its way through this story ( started right off by a Morgan reference to Jimmy Buffett who himself admitted to following his grandfathers heart ... and immediately wanting to be a pirate! )

And look at what Paul has chosen as his sign off sentence indeed!

I believe that we are all in our own way PIRATES, sailing under our own flag, or at least perhaps thats what the Caroline Group always was .... she sails in the middle of armadas of different countries. Unnoticed normally. And you notice that most really good pirates fly under their own flags with a loose association with a "pirate king" ( We all need to go see the Pirates movie again! of course the storyline left alot to be desired!)

I have thought " What would happen if in the middle of these various Armadas the Caroline Group ever struck their flags down and showed her own colors?" I believe alot of countries would be in a world of shock.

But this doesn't seem to be a bloodthirsty band of pirates here. Not that they can't be ruthless! And the flag that the Caroline Group would hoist I don't believe would be the skull and crossbones. I wonder what her flag would look like? Elizabeth