MJ12 CONNECTIONS

[Elizabeth Helen Drake]

Oh folks here we go ...... into the breach of UFOlogy and conspiracy lands.

In November Paul is going to be a speaker at the fourth annual " Crashed UFO conference" Or whatever its name is .... it is hosted by a father and son team who have taken the investigation of the "MJ12 GROUP and resulting MJ12 papers" quite seriously. This conference is an extension and expansion of their interest. Correct me Paul if I have it wrong.

So I thought it might be a good idea to finally get into that subject. You might have noticed that both Paul and I have avoided the subject like the plague. But now its time to come face to face I think and I hope that he agrees.

So, in that light. I offer this as the first shot in that direction!

http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/upd ... -005.shtml

_THE MJ-12 Connection_

" I think the rest of this story speaks for itself. The Smith memo
was the starting point for the MJ-12 forgery. The forger decided that
if any documentary evidence of crashed saucers existed, the most
likely place was in the formerly classified files of Dr. Vannevar
Bush. He accordingly then made a thorough search of these files in
the various archives. Not finding such evidence, but nevertheless
finding a great many names of top military people and civilian
scientists, he then began a search of some of their papers. The
Sarbacher letter then came along 'confirming' his hopes. Still the
crucial evidence eluded him. He then decided to manufacture a hoax,
with Vannevar Bush the obvious scientist-in-charge of a project that
never existed.

Further research gave the forger what he needed, the appropriate
dates, places and people. MJ-12 was thus born. The forger, of
course, had to ensure all the persons he had chosen for MJ-12 were
dead before the December 1984 date when the film was allegedly sent to
Jamie Shandera. The rest is now public knowledge."

Now I have alot to say about the above but I will just start with a few questions. The writer here is pretty strong with the idea that the entire MJ12 situation was a forgery to begin with. But he doesn't name names. WHO WAS THE FORGER?

and whose name is wrapped so tightly around Jaime Shandera that it probably never can be pried loose . WILLIAM MOORE.

I am going to stop my comments there because I want someone else to probe and ponder this material. The time is right to be doing it but I am the wrong person to be doing it. I am going to excuse myself because I have too much of my own agenda going. Have a good time with this. Its like doing your homework before going to classes in November. Elizabeth

[grinder]

I have come to understand that when Elizabeth Drake says "go look" she really has something interesting waiting at the end of that instruction. I am puzzled why she doesn't want to attack this herself but I appreciate the lead. The first thing I did was simply google "Jaime Shandera and William Moore and THIS is what I came up with. Like Elizabeth said as she pointed us in this direction " Go Look!"

http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/upd ... -002.shtml

"Greetings List (NOTICE THE DATE ....... grinder)

I have this matter to ask Stanton Friedman with the request that
you respond to the points raised herein

From Private discussions I have had with knowledgable
researchers there have been the following discussion raised.

Stanton could you please tell me whether you still trust your
(perhaps your former) research colleage William (Bill) Moore or
at least do you still trust in the authenticity of the MJ12
material which he gave to you? (WHICH HE GAVE YOU?)

And How do you respond to the following discussion in light of
the items stated?

In Light of these statements can you still say that the MJ12
still holds up?

I would respectfully request that you answer my enquiry without
any Insults or "slanging match" being generated

The discussion follows herewith"
..................................................................................................
Well I won't bother going there. This is just really interesting. And this "Conference" in Vegas is about the MJ12 papers I notice and also I believe has Stanton Friedman as a speaker.

Paul. Aren't you feeling a little bit strange with this, yet? Looks to me like thats what these people do for a living, hash and rehash old stuff. Your presentation I think is going to be a breath of fresh air, or do you think they will all react strangely to the truth? I guess no way to find out but to go do, right?

And do you have any idea why your research assistant doesn't want to deal with William Moore? Last I heard from your post, he had pretty much "washed his hands of Townsend Brown, right? grinder

[Victoria Steele]

A chance to chew on William Moores pant leg!

Well, first , note that Paul tried to throw that bad penny far, far away. Sorry sir. Its BACK! And I just noticed that it got thrown in my yard!

viewtopic.php?p=909#909 He says

"I trust you will make every effort to create a factual biography of Brown that will be a true credit to his troubled life. Anything less will be seen as sheer exploitation. "


Oh I really liked that when I first saw it! Sort of words from a very black kettle? Maybe? Well I think that Paul has called him on it. He has created a factual biography and during the course of that has made alot of Moores writing look ..... well ..... "agendaed. Is that a word? Should be!

Oh I am going to have a good time with this. Thanks grinder. Victoria

[Chris Knight]

Victoria,

It has been a busy day here at the office, so thank you for the GREAT laugh - I knew you wouldn't be far behind any mention of Mr. Moore.

Andrew

[grinder]

So would it be appropriate, since Moores name is so entrenched in the MJ12 story to ask the Woods what their current standing with him is? Will he be attending the conference I wonder? grinder

[Victoria Steele]

I repeat, so what is the current standing of Mr. William Moore in this circle of investigators who are so interested in these papers they call the Majestic 12? Will he be attending the conference? I note that he is not a speaker, yet it was through his efforts apparently that the MJ12 "papers" came to light. So what is happening here?

Reading from Timothy Goods "Above Top Secret" ( which is a very careful piece of work from what I have seen so far) it was through William Moores hands that this information first broached the surface. Am I correct here?

On page 544 in his appendix Good writes this interesting little piece
"The existence of the Majestic 12 group and the authenticity of the document is officially denied at the time of writing. It remains to be seen wherther further evidence, including photographs or , dare I hope? , actual exhibits from the Roswell rcovery as well as others alleged to have taken place will be made available . Or will they remain classified ... above Top Secret?"

Well, nice lead in to the essence of his book which is a very interesting read. But back to the original release of the papers. Correct me if I am wrong? It was directly through William Moores hands? Someone who knows more about this out there? /will you please join me and correct me where I need correction? Thanks! I am building something with this, honest I am. This is just the first brick. Victoria

[grinder]

Well, of course, this is almost the first thing that comes up when you Google this deal.
http://www.roswellfiles.com/FOIA/majestic12.htm

and I found this particularly interesting

The Majestic-12 papers first came to light in 1984, when a film cassette with photographs of the papers were mailed to Jaime Shandera. At the time, Shandera was not involved with UFO research and was a little known producer of documentaries. So one might be quite curious as why the papers were "leaked" to him, unless you know that one of Shandera's good friends was UFO researcher and author William Moore (see below!). Together with Stanton Friedman, they eventually released the papers some two years later. These papers became cornerstones in several books about Roswell, including Stanton Friedman's Crash at Corona and TOP SECRET/ MAJIK.

OK. There we have Moore and Friedman, (who I notice WILL be speaking at the Woods Conference and I understand is a long time family friend of the Woods family. In fact I believe that Ryan Wood credits Fiedman with starting his interest in this field.)

Are there hidden agendas here????? Its just important I think for all of us to know where things are coming from.

Victoria! why is it that I feel you have already been into this information long before I got here?

I know that Paul has avoided the "Philadelphia Experiment " because he I think felt that it would lead him away from the solid, clean story of Townsend Brown. But we probably should at least be knowledgeable about what is out there. And if you don't mind wrestling around in the hogpen Victoria, neither do I.

I agree with you though. There HAVE to be people out there reading this who have taken a great deal of interest into the development of this thread. I know both of us would like to hear your viewpoints. Please.

Do you think that Moore is on the up- and -up? or is all of this a carefully generated hoax to line his own pockets? Is he working for someone else? Or is he (as the CIA likes to put it) .... "operating in the twilight zone"

Just exactly WHAT IS HIS AGENDA NOW in all of this and WHAT HAS IT BEEN IN THE PAST?
grinder

[Mark Culpepper]

You can substitute the appropriate words in the title of this message, That was my response when I read further on that link that was just supplied.

http://www.roswellfiles.com/FOIA/majestic12.htm

Go further down the article and you will hit this (read it though because, well, just because!)




The Majestic-12 papers- ostensibly "leaked" Top Secret memorandums- has long enjoyed substantial cachet among some authors and proponents of the UFO Crash at Roswell theory. They are proof, they say, not only that the Crash really happened (which version of the Saga is hotly debated, though), but that The Government is actively involved in a conspiracy to hide the saucer and alien bodies from the public.

What the conspiracy advocates fail to mention in their writings is that the MJ-12 papers are a complete forgery!

The story of how the original MJ-12 papers came to light is an interesting look into the mindset of some of the leading UFO researchers, and an excellent example of the quality of UFO evidence that is acceptable to some people,



The Majestic-12 papers first came to light in 1984, when a film cassette with photographs of the papers were mailed to Jaime Shandera. At the time, Shandera was not involved with UFO research and was a little known producer of documentaries. So one might be quite curious as why the papers were "leaked" to him, unless you know that one of Shandera's good friends was UFO researcher and author William Moore (see below!). Together with Stanton Friedman, they eventually released the papers some two years later. These papers became cornerstones in several books about Roswell, including Stanton Friedman's Crash at Corona and TOP SECRET/ MAJIK.

The Majestic-12 documents consisted of an eight page briefing paper to President Eisenhower detailing a UFO crash at Roswell, New Mexico in 1947, another crash at El Indio, Texas in 1950, and listing the members of the government's special Majestic-12 or "MJ-12" UFO group. It was dated "18 November, 1952", and it named "Admiral" Roscoe H. Hillenkoetter as the briefing officer. There was also a memo from President Harry S Truman to Secretary of Defense Forrestal that authorized the creation of the MJ-12 group.



One would assume that the term Majestic-12, which was the alleged code-name of a Very Top Secret panel of leading government and military figures, would not be known outside of the conspiracy. However....

The term "MJ Twelve" was apparently first used on a one-page "Secret" teletype message dated Nov. 17, 1980, which Richard Doty provided to Moore in early 1981, who in turn, showed a copy of the telegram to researchers Brad Sparks and Kal Korff on Jan. 17, 1980. Doty at this time was an agent for Air Force Intelligence, who had earlier admitted to forging other UFO documents (the Elsworth Document). At the time the Shandera received the film canister, Doty was stationed at Kirkland Air Force Base in Albuquerque, NM. The envelope the film arrived in was postmarked Albuquerque, NM.

(Robert Todd, a very determined and competent UFO researcher, investigated the teletype message, and showed that it was a hoax in early 1983.)

We next hear of the term when William Moore approached former National Enquirer reporter Bob Pratt in January 1982. Pratt was asked to collaborate on a novel by Moore. The working title of this novel was to be MAJIK-12(!). Consider that the alleged MJ-12 documents would not be "leaked" to Shandera until 1984, and we see the seeds of suspicion starting to grow
..........huh?....... then this

Next, we have this: "According to Friedman, among others, Moore had suggested as early as 1982 that he wanted to create Roswell documents, thinking that it might open doors that were closed."
(The Truth About the UFO Crash at Roswell, Randle and Schmitt)

This was two years before the alleged MJ-12 documents were mailed to Shandera (Moore’s good friend) in 1984 ............. huh? ....... then THIS

Then in 1983, Moore sought Brad Sparks reaction to a plan of his to create counterfeit government documents. Moore told Sparks he believed that counterfeit documents could be used to induce former military officers to speak out about what the gov’t really knew about UFOs and the cover-up. Sparks suggested strongly that Moore not do this. Sparks was so upset that he called Stanton Friedman and found, to his shock, that Friedman thought that the hoaxing of such documents was a good idea"

WHAT, WHAT, WHAT THE BLINKING WHAT? Mark C

[Victoria Steele]

Are we to understand then that William Moore enjoys a "persona non grata" with Mr. and Mr. Wood ? If not? How have they reconcilled this? And what about his relationship with Dr. Friedman? I imagine "wanting to fabricate "proof" would have been inconcievable to him so am I to believe that he actually voiced the opinion that he would go along with Moores plan. Som ething there is not ringing the right bell!

It doesn't sound like them, (The Woods) going along with this kind of " fabrication of information" when it was needed to fill a hole. I have considered the elder Wood especiallly totally serious in his investigations, so I am inclined to believe that there is SOMETHING there which they have based their studies on, even if the stuff that bill Moore supplied was so badly tainted.

Course this is all relatively new to me, and its tough going already! Victoria

[twigsnapper]

So, IF Moore was PNG'd out of the Wood "Crashed UFO Study Group", when might that have happened? Twigsnapper

[Victoria Steele]

If Moore was PNG'd? Oh! I like that phrase! I have never seen it before but I sure like it! Is that a special phrase that you guys use?Does that go along with the decoder ring? <g> I'll watch for that moment. Thanks.

Meanwhile how about this to chew on for a little?

http://www.csicop.org/klassfiles/SUN-55.html

Dr. Robert M. Wood, a respected, long-time engineer/scientist with McDonnell Douglas until his retirement in 1993, has emerged as a new promoter of MJ-12--an (alleged) super-Top-Secret U.S. government UFO agency. He and son Ryan--a computer specialist--strongly endorsed the authenticity of the original MJ-12 papers released in 1987 by William L. Moore, Jaime Shandera and Stanton Friedman as well as a new batch of obviously flawed MJ-12 documents. Their endorsement came in their paper titled "Cosmic Watergate: New Evidence of Retrieved UFOs," presented at a UFO conference held in North Haven, Conn., on Oct. 10-11. Their conference paper focused on about 10 "Top Secret" documents obtained from a little-known California researcher named Timothy Cooper. Cooper claims the "new" MJ-12 papers were left in his mailbox by a secretive source named Thomas Cantwheel.

and then something interesting happened . Apparently Mr. Joseph Firmage (who happens to be a very wealthy individual stepped up ) .....

On Nov. 30, these Cooper/Cantwheel/Wood MJ-12 documents were hailed by a respected Silicon Valley businessman--Joseph P. Firmage--in a two-page press release on the Internet which carried the headline: "STUNNING TOP SECRET MILITARY DOCUMENTS PUBLISHED ON INTERNET REVEALING RECOVERY OF EXTRATERRESTRIAL VEHICLES AND BODIES DURING TRUMAN ADMINISTRATION." Copies of the new (and original) MJ-12 papers, which Firmage said had been authenticated by Dr. Robert M. Wood, were being sent to major U.S. news media organizations. According to Firmage, "Scientists and the media who reject this claim, particularly in the face of this most recent evidence, are ignoring the single most important event to confront humanity in perhaps 2,000 years." There was no mention of the fact that Stanton Friedman had earlier investigated some of Cooper's MJ-12 documents and concluded that they were COUNTERFEIT, and that this was known to Dr. Wood. "

So whats really happening here? I have to admit to being confused. What was it that brought Firmage into the frey? And why would his endorsement erase the previous concerns about authenticity? Unless there is a germ of truth in all of these papers, surrounded by disinformation? Sorta the manure pile and the pony situation? And why would firmage know better than others?

I hope I am not boring anybody with this step by step approach. Its the only way I can force myself to actually try to see what was happening. Victoria

[Trickfox]

So would it be appropriate, since Moores name is so entrenched in the MJ12 story to ask the Woods what their current standing with him is? Will he be attending the conference I wonder? grinder

woe horsie there Mr. Grinder, .....now there is a good idea!!!

Trickfox

[Victoria Steele]

So, Trickfox, what do you suggest. Shall I ask him now via Email so that we will know (if he answers me) or shall I wait for the conference? Thing is, if I don't have ll my homework done by then I could be asking a truly stupid question in that crowd. I am assuming (that word again!) that many of these conference attendees know each other pretty well and maybe I would be asking some sort of taboo and rude question. Like asking someone if his wife is going to come to his birthday party when everyone around but you knows that they had a "War of the Roses" type of divorce.

So, I think, for awhile I will try to find the answer to Mr. Twigsnappers question. IF he is a PNG then when did that happen? and if he isn't, when did they make up? Or was there EVER a split. Much to learn.

Thing that drives me so nuts is that so many people take so much on faith, and then question the conclusions that seem so obvious. Perhaps the entire MJ12 thing was a hoax, but that still might not be discounting the fact that things were falling out of the sky apparently. And I am fascinated that GENERALLY speaking the "clean up crew" seems to have gotten there pretty darned quick. In some of these cases, I notice it speculated, its almost as if someone KNEW where this thing was going to hit. Just my humble opinion this very second. Hold on a few moments, it could change! Victoria

[Martin Calloway]

Yeah, well, shoulda flown south for the winter.

but while I am snowed in I have time to look at this material again. Its good, what you are doing Victoria. Going over this material step by step might be useful. Have you Paul ever really looked hard in this direction?you know as well as I do that its important to know as much as you can about this subject. And we are probably talking about things here that you are more familiar with that than you realize at the moment.

When you get a chance take a gander at this. It might even be worth reading more than once.

http://www.ufoevidence.org/documents/doc581.htm

"While Moore himself has reconsidered his position on Roswell in recent years -- now saying he is "no longer ... of the opinion that the extraterrestrial explanation is the best explanation for this event" -- he remains open to the possibility that the documents are authentic."

SO WHAT DOES THAT SAY? That the idea of them coming from "outer space " may be false, but the documents mentioning "crashed saucers" may still be true? Gee, thats sort of an interesting twist.

And then this :
"Cooper/Woods MAJESTIC Leak Grows Into Paper Flood
Robert Scott Martin, Space.com, October 1999

original source | fair use notice

Summary: According to a press release issued by the father-and-son team, Cooper, who is best known in UFO circles for being the mysterious recipient of Majestic 12 documents, has now received more than 2,000 pages of material from various sources over the past five years.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Tim Cooper's mailbox is still packed with documents relating to the U.S. government's role in UFO activity, especially as it relates to the shadowy super-secret operation code-named "MAJESTIC-12," researchers Dr. Robert Wood and Ryan Wood said Wednesday.

According to a press release issued by the father-and-son team, Cooper, who is best known in UFO circles for being the mysterious recipient of Majestic 12 documents, has now received more than 2,000 pages of material from various sources over the past five years. (Gee, thats hardly a leak, its a flipping flood!)

Cooper described the documents -- about ten percent of which are stamped "TOP SECRET/MAJESTIC" or a derivative thereof -- as evidence that the government had been active in collecting UFO data and keeping it from the public since the 1940s.

"There is a growing body of evidence through the tireless efforts of ... a host of distinguished authors, researchers and former intelligence officers that the United States had a deeply classified UFO program since 1947," he said in the release. (what "former intelligence officers, exactly?)

The Woods promised that they will release many of the documents in a few weeks, after their website goes online.

"In general, these documents will be released either over the Internet or in a related publication within a year after they have undergone authentication tests," Ryan Wood said. "Premature release without quality work only clouds the interpretation of the document and wastes everyone's time." ( My vote on that too)

Digging up old controversy

The "MAJESTIC" security classification first emerged as a source of UFO controversy in the 1984, when investigator William Moore received photographs of a number of previously unknown documents from an anonymous source. Among other matters, these documents dealt with an alleged 1952 briefing of then President-Elect Eisenhower by members of "the Majestic-12 Group," a classified government project devoted to the investigation of UFO reports -- particularly the infamous "flying disc" that crashed near Roswell in 1947.

According to the Moore documents, the Majestic group had knowledge of a number of downed UFOs and alien remains, all of which were retrieved by military personnel for further study.

Government agencies, including the FBI and CIA, have denounced the Moore documents as fakes -- an opinion shared by UFO skeptic organization CSICOP, which labeled the material "hoax documents" in 1989.

Independent research done by Thomas Deuley, Kevin Randle and others has since subjected the story laid out in the documents -- notably the "crashes" of Roswell and El Indio/Guerrero on the Texas-Mexico border -- to extreme scrutiny.

While Moore himself has reconsidered his position on Roswell in recent years -- now saying he is "no longer ... of the opinion that the extraterrestrial explanation is the best explanation for this event" -- he remains open to the possibility that the documents are authentic.

Firmage: interesting, true or not

In late 1998, Moore had largely receded into the background. However, at that time, the Woods, on behalf of Cooper, revealed that the anonymous mailer -- or perhaps a copycat leak -- had struck again, and that Cooper had been receiving "new" MJ-12 materials for years.

The new material trickled out over the next few months, galvanizing the UFO research community. Seasoned investigators -- including Stanton Friedman, a long-time advocate of the Moore material -- largely took the view that the documents were a hoax.

On the other hand, Cooper and the Woods found a high-profile defender in Silicon Alley CEO Joseph Firmage, who incorporated a dozen of the new documents into his book The Truth. In it he wrote that the material "simply must have been" either an authentic record of U.S. UFO policy or else a deliberate work of government espionage against the UFO research community.
(EXCUSE ME? run that past me one more time, "Either an authentic record of US UFO policy or else a deliberate work of government espionage against the UFO research community" WHAT? DELIBERATE WORK OF GOVERNMENT ESPIONAGE AGAINST THE UFO COMMUNITY?) Now, I am sorry, but that just doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me? Can someone explain that opinion?)

"If the documents are pristine and true, they were written by the individuals therein mentioned, or their assistants," Firmage wrote in The Truth, "If the documents are partial or complete forgeries, then they were written by an intelligence agency of the government of either the United States or the Soviet Union."

(DAMN. Theres that either/or scenario again! And I have to agree with you. Why is Firmage espousing this? To sell his book? No, he doesn't need the revenue from that. What was his agenda one wonders? I have the feeling that he is "keeping the ball in the air". Does that make sense to anyone else out there?)

This is fun Victoria. Thanks for something to do! Martin

[Victoria Steele]

Thanks for the thanks Martin. I have just read over this entire thread and that phrase you used " Keeping the ball in the air" suddenly makes some sort of sense to me, though I am not sure that I know why.

It all boils down to "agendas" I guess. Being able to pierce through what people are doing and saying and actually seeing WHY they are doing it.

Now the entrance to this situation of this VERY wealthy man is a bit of a mystery to me.( Mr. Firmage, if you happen to be reading this, could you post on and give us sort of a beginners tour of what it was that inspired you to get involved?)

Notice everybody that I am using our own private buzzword here INSPIRATION. And those of you who are old timers in this forum will see why I used it. For everyone else .... well .... it would almost take too long to explain.

So, I am sort of stuck in a time sucking project right now and I may not get right back to this until next week. Because of that I want to echo what Elizabeth has said over and over in this forum. If there is anybody else out there who has read all of this and has a comment, PLEASE, log in and give us YOUR PARTICULAR THOUGHTS on all of this. (Remember we are like special wind chimes just waiting for the breeze)

The phrase " Keep the ball in the air" was used and I really like it! Its easier to keep that ball up there if there are more players and I have a feeling that we are all a reflection of that!

So I think my doggie and I are going to take a Saturday walk. He is really good at walking me! We stop for coffee along the way, he lets me pay and then leaves me to my thoughts as he tries to steal the foam off the top of my cup! Nobody enjoys life half as much as this little guy! And he reminds me then so strongly that we have more at stake here, (when we worry about the destruction of our world) than just us. Its his world too!
Victoria