Thomas Townsend Brown Effect

For a discussion of the science of Townsend Brown, his experiments and his ideas.

Thomas Townsend Brown Effect

Postby Hector » Wed Sep 03, 2008 1:20 pm

In an attempt to contribute to this board I've been reading post from the past and present and I'm seeing a broad spectrum of opinion as to what they are calling or consider to be the TTBrown effect. So for the sake of clarity I want everyone to answer the fallowing questions so we can define the TTBrown effect from other effects such as the one I’m researching.

What do you consider the TTBrown effect?

What are the characteristics associated with such an effect? (i.e. High Voltage, Low Voltage, AC/DC, Nonlinear, Linear Geometry, Electrodynamic, Electrostatic..... etc.

If we can’t define it we can't explain it.
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Re: Thomas Townsend Brown Effect

Postby Chris Knight » Wed Sep 03, 2008 1:46 pm

Hi Hector,

The standard definition is at: http://www.ttbrown.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=569#p17039, but I'll repost the entire message:

Biefeld-Brown Effect (1977):

"The basic Biefeld-Brown effect is quite simple. It is manifested as a departure from the Coulomb Law of electrostatic attraction, in that the opposite forces are not equal. The negative electrode appears to chase the positive electrode, so that there is a net force of the system (dipole) in the negative-to-positive direction.The Biefeld-Brown Effect states that in a highly charged, two-electrode system, the positive electrode will "lead" the negative electrode in the direction of the line between the two electrodes, or, the negative electrode will appear to be more attracted to the positive electrode than vice-versa. The negative electrode appears to "chase" the positive electrode, so that there is a net force of the system (a dipole) in the negative to positive direction.

This 'pure' force is a secondary effect and therefore somewhat difficult to isolate from ambient electrostatic forces which are much stronger by nature and tend to confuse any observations and there interpretation."


Couomb's Law states (Answers): http://www.answers.com/topic/coulomb-s-law

In physics, law stating that the electrostatic force between two charged bodies is proportional to the product of the amount of charge on the bodies divided by the square of the distance between them. If the bodies are oppositely charged, one positive and one negative, they are attracted toward one another; if the bodies are similarly charged, both positive or both negative, the force between them is repulsive (see charge). Coulomb's law applies exactly only when the charged bodies are much smaller than the distance separating them and therefore can be treated approximately as point charges. When combined with principles of quantum physics, Coulomb's law helps describe the forces that bind electrons to an atomic nucleus, that bind atoms together into molecules, and that hold together solids and liquids. The law was deduced in 1785 by C. A. de Coulomb from experimental measures of the forces between charged bodies; the experiments were made using his torsion balance.


Notice that "law applies exactly only when the charged bodies are much smaller than the distance separating them and therefore can be treated approximately as point charges."

The massless, point charge is a theoretical construct used to simplify complex mathematical (theoretical) and physical systems. The Biefeld-Brown Effect is a description of the departure from this particular complex system (Coulomb's Law) due to the addition of mass into a charged system.
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Re: Thomas Townsend Brown Effect

Postby Hector » Wed Sep 03, 2008 1:54 pm

Hi Chris,

According to this definition you provided than ion wind plays no roll in thrust. Correct?

If that is the case than a true measurement of the TTBrown effect could only be made in the absence of any contributions by any other conventional force mechanisms. Correct?
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Re: Thomas Townsend Brown Effect

Postby Chris Knight » Wed Sep 03, 2008 6:29 pm

Correct, not according to the basic definition provided by Townsend Brown. We don't have much of an issue with the whole ionic wind issue, because we have always worked with solid systems.

As to the true measurement issue, that's a tricky question. You seem to have a fair grasp of electrical systems, so you know that can be "messy" for lack of a better word. Many interacting electrical phenomena can interfere with measurement of one effect.

In that light, if you can name every conventional force mechanism then it might be possible to determine if it has any contribution to the TTB Effect / BB Effect (assuming you are using the terms interchangeably).
Andrew
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Re: Thomas Townsend Brown Effect

Postby Hector » Wed Sep 03, 2008 7:19 pm

Hi Chris,

In my research I take slightly different approach, because in our devices the efficiency is far higher than any conventional force mechanism can account for. So while I can't tell what it is, I can prove what it is not.
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Re: Thomas Townsend Brown Effect

Postby Mikado14 » Wed Sep 03, 2008 7:37 pm

Hector wrote:What do you consider the TTBrown effect?



Hello Hector,

I know that Andrew has asked you or better yet, appears to assume that the TTBrown effect/Biefeld-Brown are one and the same that you mention above. Just wondering what your answer is and not wanting to assume.

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Re: Thomas Townsend Brown Effect

Postby Hector » Wed Sep 03, 2008 8:30 pm

While I agree with the idea that the real effect is the one without any conventional contributions, it looks like Brown as well as many that have fallowed have settled for quick returns of the ion wind version of the concept.


Hector
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Re: Thomas Townsend Brown Effect

Postby Chris Knight » Wed Sep 03, 2008 8:49 pm

Hector,

It is possible that:

"Brown as well as many that have followed have settled for quick returns of the ion wind version of the concept,"


although, I'm not exactly sure what quick returns might have been in his case. It doesn't appear to be money, although I'm not privy to any of the lifter group's finances. Perhaps they are faring better.

Qualight has been pursuing research in several avenues that more closely follow Townsend's original definition of the BB Effect for some years using Townsend's own documentation. Whether you subscribe to the liquid (gas, liquid, etc.) dielectric or solid dielectric model, each has its own characteristics and effciencies determined by the setup.

Based on our research and Townsends documentation, I tend to lean in the direction that the patents granted represent part of his research that was acceptable tot he general public, in general, rather than the heart of his research.
Last edited by Chris Knight on Wed Sep 03, 2008 10:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Thomas Townsend Brown Effect

Postby Mikado14 » Wed Sep 03, 2008 9:34 pm

Hello Andrew!

Sticking my nose in here. I always viewed the TTBrown effect as essentially what was done at Bahnson etc, and the Biefeld-Brown as something different.

There are distinct differences but I will leave that to others for the picking of nits.

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Re: Thomas Townsend Brown Effect

Postby Chris Knight » Wed Sep 03, 2008 11:14 pm

Mikado,

Touche'. For clarity, I edited my previous post to pull out the quote.

The Biefeld-Brown Effect is defined in my first post per Townsend Brown, but I don't believe there has ever been a definition of the "Townsend Brown Effect," or even if there exists a "Townsend Brown Effect" unless you have come up with a specific effect and definition...?

I think I first used the term several years ago, and for a couple of years, Qualight actually owned the manufacturing trademark, "The Townsend Brown Effect," for a concept product we sold the rights to. We let the trademark lapse a year or so ago, and I don't think I've ever heard it mentioned outside of that until Hector mentioned it in this thread.

So, what is the definition of the "Townsend Brown Effect ?"
Andrew
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Re: Thomas Townsend Brown Effect

Postby Hector » Thu Sep 04, 2008 1:39 am

Chris,

Then I will put it to you this way, I started with what TTBrown was doing and were I'm at now is far from there.

What I'm working uses zero ion wind, doesn't need it, don't want it and is of no value to my propulsion phenomenon. Call it what you want, all I know is that it works and I'm finally getting the support I need to bring it out of obscurity and into the eyes of the general scientific and defense community.

You do things your way and I'll keep doing things my way.


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Re: Thomas Townsend Brown Effect

Postby Chris Knight » Thu Sep 04, 2008 2:42 am

Hector,

Fair enough. I suspect we're on the same wavelength.

I have always thought that "The Townsend Brown Effect" was a more appropriate term for the effect, but then again, it was Townsend who named it :wink:
Andrew
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Re: Thomas Townsend Brown Effect

Postby Radomir » Thu Sep 04, 2008 3:25 am

That sounds more right, Chris. What did the man himself call it in his writings and patents. Let's use his terminology. We have electrohydrodynamic and electrogravitic. Anything else?

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Re: Thomas Townsend Brown Effect

Postby skyfish » Thu Sep 04, 2008 11:33 pm

The effect is...the ability of highly charged dielectrics to interact with the very fabric of space/time(can we call it the eher?) generating a force that produces fluctuations/waves in the ether that nullify the quantum "pressure" of the continuum, creating what is perceived as an antigravity effect, and at high enough energy levels and in the right configuration, produces large distortions in the space/time continuum...resulting in...time travel. IMHO
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Re: Thomas Townsend Brown Effect

Postby Paul S. » Fri Sep 05, 2008 3:27 pm

skyfish wrote:The effect is...the ability of highly charged dielectrics to interact with the very fabric of space/time(can we call it the eher?) generating a force that produces fluctuations/waves in the ether that nullify the quantum "pressure" of the continuum, creating what is perceived as an antigravity effect, and at high enough energy levels and in the right configuration, produces large distortions in the space/time continuum...resulting in...time travel. IMHO


Damn. That might be the most concise and coherent summary of what we're dancing around that I've read yet!

Anybody else want to weigh in on that?

Damn... where's Morgan when you need him?

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