US space policy

[Rose]

Welcome, Amalie.

I'm sorry you missed the window for reading Paul's first draft of the TTB Biography that he shared chapter by chapter. It laid out many entangling and enticing story lines, each of them being pursued in a thread somewhere here on the forum.

I am very interested in the human aspects of Townsend Brown's life, but many here follow the technical aspects of his work and have the skill to carry that work forward today. I learn a lot from their posts and I'm sure I will from yours addressing the state of the space program as it has become.

I believe Dr. Brown was a motive force behind GRAB, and acronym for one of the two classified data gathering projects performed by the first uS satellite, but those events fall into the time frame that we call "The Missing Years," since we have no notes of confirmation.

Anyway, I hope you enjoy this group as much as I do.

rose

[amalie]

Thank you all so much for the marvelous discussion

Linda welcoming and smiling resident mystic,

I did not really mean to be so flippant ... about the ATK rocket failure, rather to question the latent dynamic between the scientific, humanistic and military space communities. Of course I am only speak of revolution here as conjecture, but then I am a bit idealistic sometimes.

Like you I took a quick look at ATK pages and came to the same conclusion . This is a well established armaments and supplies corporation that does a lot of business with the US government. Not only does this company make motors for space shuttle and boosters they are "world's largest small caliber ammunition manufacturing entity" and also are undertaking "next-generation prompt global strike weapons ". What I intended to bring into focus by my remark here is the underlying "ethic" is that the right word? that must engage such a military and supplies private corporation. Of course ATK commercial organism is not intended as a philanthropic one or a philosophical one either. The correct mandate is to make money by fulfilling needed government contracts in a responsible way. Yet US space policy will undoubtedly to some extent influence the activities and objectives of such a company. Not because of the existence of anything underhand but because for these types of military space applications purchase is obtained by governmental oversight for national defense . However the multitude of equally valuable developmental space applications are not funded or even included within the national appropriations agenda .Thus we have a situation where a space application will be supported by US agencies if it has a military or defense application because money is available for that purpose , but if a space application has a non-invasive and developmental application for civil society requirements, no provision can generally be made. The line is not absolute but it is very apparent , 80% of satellites are US military satellites. This manifestation is a direct result of US space policy making.

Because of the exclusionary space funding dynamic, mostly through massive DOD enterprise, scientists are often only able to find monies for space based r&d projects if they are willing to work within national security profiles. An application might receive funding into production, but that asset will only be available to the agency that provided the investment. DOD patents pile up but DOD exports reaches impasse because of the current peculiar and insular regulatory status, which is closely linked into US space and foreign policy outreaches.

Take for example non-proliferation through space based applications . For an enlightened human society non-proliferation is one way to achieve better security, responsible weapons oversight mean less potential for violence in particular regarding the accumulation of arms, biological weapons and nuclear materials by terrorist groups. Current advanced space technologies for non-proliferation include GPS, radio tagging and tracking, space surveillances , earth observation instrumentations and analysis, radars and space detections and a host of closely associated communications , computational and data based assets . I feel that if utilized at an international level, these dramatic technological potentials could probably in a few short years, secure the worlds nuclear stockpiles, destroy obselete weaponry, retire and reprocess hazardous nuclear waste, eliminate the small arms trade to terrorists, eliminate the illegal biological and chemical weapons and so on. Better authorization to bear arms does not mean that arms become illegitimate properties , rather that they are held in a responsible way and not used for illegal purposes. The same non-proliferation assurances apply to civil societies as to the formal national securities. We do not wish to see our societies overrun by lawlessness and bandits, so arms control becomes an important issue to assure less crime, a lower prison population and so on. Space based systems can address both national security and civil society rule of law,in tangent, and in isolation for both national and international identities.

There is no actual US agency working for non -proliferation in this manner, that is through space based utilizations. Some service is given to the UN non-proliferation agendas and for the Nuclear regulatory commission. But there is no comprehensive US platform or policy vehicle in place that can assure space based non-proliferation implementations of a leading role, which is a role it well deserves . Rather the emphasis is given for "next-generation prompt global strike weapons " monies which if allocated within adequate space policy outreach could probably not only create many worthwhile diplomatic and intra -cultural agendas but which could also set the venue for a world free of terrorism and untoward and illegal aggressions.

Eisenhower established NASA as a public and civil society agency in order to redress the balance of interests against untoward military space involvements . Today we still face the same problem , more so perhaps as the plethora of advanced applications was only envisioned by Eisenhower, we are seeing the actual reality , and what can be done is both tremendous and transformative.

Today Barrack Obama pledged 7 billion additional funding for NASA , however it is not money so much that will right the balance into US global leadership, it is the formulation of balanced space policy, that sees an international space agenda as having value for all aspects of a unique and necessary global development . If this can be achieved it will represent a true and original style of democracy , one that can bring forward the technological and informational attributes of our modern world as the highly developed instruments of human advancement.

I send you all my best wishes

Amalie

[amalie]

Dear Mikado 14 ,

I don't think I am myopic , I don't think I am suffering from truama ,
although I admit that my experience with the cyborg has not been a very pleasant one

But I do think I am very worried. Living inside a silicon chip is a very dangerous thing to do

I could give you a list of why the information age is very dangerous

But perhaps you would like to give me an alternative viewpoint first

Do you think one should have a good experience from technology and why and how do people enjoy it ?

Best Wishes
Amalie

[amalie]

Mikado ... per your other remark .. "more legislation on top of poor legislation"

I agree , no way would anything good come from that .

Current space legislation is all bits and pieces , bandwidths , applications , export controls , monopolies and all the rest.

I am talking about policy making which comes from a different and integrated dimension.
This type of approach is linked into discussion for a democratic policy vehicle . Something that will have constitutional significance .

It is not about popping more legalese on top of fragile legislative values , it is about opening up public and congressional discussion on the formative values and the significance of the information age .

Do you believe in the information age? Do you think it needs steering ? By whom ?
Or should it just be left to it's own devices ?

Everything always works out fine doesn't it ...

Amalie

[amalie]

greggvissa ...thank you for road map .. I hope to be able to navigate better eventually .... amalie

[amalie]

Dear Rose ,

I am writing a book as well . It is called "Space for Progress"

I found it quite difficult to write about technology in a way that would be easily readable I would float of into a technical riff and then find that the language was virtually unintelligible.I guess I knew what I wanted to say and there were a few who understood me , but of course I wanted my book reach many if possible .So I decided to write in a more cynical tone and also in a softer poetic one . This seemed to help and writing became more fluid and expressive.After a while I started to include little futuristic visions (which everyone enjoyed) and also some biographical snippets. But I still have several hundred pages to go to finish the work, perhaps by the spring if I really apply myself. I hope that the explosive tech scene has not moved on by then ,way past the level of my argument, which would mean the book was no longer relevant.
I would like to be able to write a book that was durable and withstood the test of time. I am looking forward very much to reading Paul's book when it is published.

Thank you very much for the reference I will try and find out some more from the forum posts .

"I believe Dr. Brown was a motive force behind GRAB, and acronym for one of the two classified data gathering projects performed by the first uS satellite, but those events fall into the time frame that we call "The Missing Years," since we have no notes of confirmation."

It was really nice talking to you , I hope we meet again soon

Love Amalie

[Linda Brown]

Amalie,

You said this and I wanted to respond to it.

"Today Barrack Obama pledged 7 billion additional funding for NASA , however it is not money so much that will right the balance into US global leadership, it is the formulation of balanced space policy, that sees an international space agenda as having value for all aspects of a unique and necessary global development . If this can be achieved it will represent a true and original style of democracy , one that can bring forward the technological and informational attributes of our modern world as the highly developed instruments of human advancement."

This Forum is not meant to be a political springboard essentially BUT I think that we all deserve at least one shot at stating our feelings, especially at this particular time. So here I go. I believe Barrack Obama has the right combination of intellect and courage to get things done and I will do everything in my power to see him elected. Fare Forward Voyager. Linda

[Trickfox]

Hey Guys....The ladies are taking over.....and Hillary did not even get the VP slot.

Linda is right though, we hardly ever talk about politicians in this forum...There is just too much important stuff to talk about . And besides, some of us are working to develop speculative new technology which MUST exist no mater who becomes president. We also have quite a few romantics who were just interested in the social interactions of Dr. Brown and his familly.

Speaking from a personnal and internatonal perspective, I can affirm the fact that the Unied States will re-gain a certain amount of respect in the CIVILized league of NATIONS if Obama/Biden wins the Election.

Canada is often refered to as; The FRIENDLY NEIGHBOUR who event went to Afghanistan to help the Americans chase down the terrorist, -however we never went to IRAK with the US. That was a decision by the American People.....(YOU) when you elected Bush.

You Americans still have the chance to CHANGE the course of things if you listen to a good "Navigator".

if y'all thaink da brother should win ...... "Laisse les bon temps rouler" says an old Louisianna Cajun!!

I see another "strong" woman standing in the shadow and her name is Annie..

I hope she steps up in our forum, I hear she is an excellent motivator too.

Trickfox

[Mikado14]

Dear Mikado 14 ,

I don't think I am myopic , I don't think I am suffering from truama ,
although I admit that my experience with the cyborg has not been a very pleasant one

Amalie, here is what you originally said:

Closed because the quantum, which is us, is now inside the box, which is the silicon chip, in the form of the electronic linguistic impulses. Open because all we have to do is use those particular electronic impulses to open the box back up and return to the real world.

And my response :

Somehow I can't help but wonder if your view is tainted on the myopic side from a subjective experience that went badly more so than an objective view.

Let me explain myself further or perhaps I should say a bit more clearer. You have identified the "quantum" as "us". There are several definitions to that word, several of which apply to Physics of which from your context I don't believe you were inferring, therefore, you must be identifying an amount that is inside the "box" which you then identified as the "silicon chip" and that amount inside is identified as "us", whomever they may be. Your view in lumping all of "us" into that box presumes upon me and thus your "quanta" is reduced by one as there are probably others that would agree with me. It was your view of lumping all of "us" into the box that I saw as being myopic for you came out with a conclusiary statement. My statement was prefaced with the word "wonder" which should have indicated that it was only a thought. As for there being a trauma involved I would say no more than purchasing a "Yugo" instead of a "Toyota". The reference to a cyborg, well, you have me on that one for I feel like Hansel with no corn to drop.

But I do think I am very worried. Living inside a silicon chip is a very dangerous thing to do

I could give you a list of why the information age is very dangerous

But perhaps you would like to give me an alternative viewpoint first

Do you think one should have a good experience from technology and why and how do people enjoy it ?

I agree with you as to one "living inside a silicon chip" if you are referring to those that live in or for this box in front of me that Itype on or those that have the phones with all the gadgets and the Ipods etc. Toys if viewed properly, addicitions to others. As to the rest of the quote above, the simplest answer I will give at this moment is a personal view. I see some inherent dangers to the information age if we are referring to the Internet, what is real and what is bullshit. As to having a "good experience from technology" and how and why people enjoy it the only answer I can give would be trite but it is what you make of it. To live within it, as if it is all there is, would be giving up your freedom as a being. I use technology as I would a ratchet wrench, a meter or an oscilloscope etc....in other words, a tool to make my life easier for the pursuit of more meaningful endeavors that will expand upon my person or my spirit.

Mikado

[Mikado14]

The next time I am brought into an emergency room, if it were to ever happen again, and I die on the guerney, I want a cardiologist there that has only practiced for 150 days.

Get the friggin' politics off of here.

Mikado

[Mikado14]

I am talking about policy making which comes from a different and integrated dimension.
This type of approach is linked into discussion for a democratic policy vehicle . Something that will have constitutional significance .

Your statement reminds me of "manifest destiny". "democratic" and "consitutional" when speaking in terms of the planet is in the same vein as what the USSR views were post WWII. There are countries that are not democratic or operate under a constitution.

It is not about popping more legalese on top of fragile legislative values , it is about opening up public and congressional discussion on the formative values and the significance of the information age .

Do you believe in the information age? Do you think it needs steering ? By whom ?
Or should it just be left to it's own devices ?

Everything always works out fine doesn't it ...

I don't believe that I will answer your questions for you ended with sarcasm. That indicates to me, that you are already set in your view and any answer I would offer would be from "outside" of your box and would fall upon presupposed ears.

Mikado

**edited once for punctuation

[Victoria Steele]

Damn Mikado,

Did you get out of bed this morning on the wrong side or what?

You said
"I don't believe that I will answer your questions for you ended with sarcasm. That indicates to me, that you are already set in your view and any answer I would offer would be from "outside" of your box and would fall upon presupposed ears."

I didn't see what Amalie wrote as sarcastic and in the box. Maybe just a little wry perhaps. <g>. Maybe there is some whistling in the dark happening. I think we all took what she said in our own way and its my time here to jump in and say a couple of things to you Mikado Don't take that little title up in the corner seriously. You may not " enforce" the thinking styles here on the forum, political or not. " Get the friggin' politics off of here." NOOOOO..... I don't think so ....... and if I want to make a political statement as I noticed Linda Brown made .... I will do it. I won't roll it up in a magazine and beat you to death with it, I promise. But you might have to listen to some political zeal from my end of this thing before this season is out.

We do not live in caves. Politics is part of how things get done in this world. I have a right to talk about all of that and this is an open forum until Paul shuts it down. I intend to be respectful, I promise. But at some point along this line you will probably all hear from me on this score.

And Amalie. I didn't even know we HAD a " Space Policy".( note that is a wry comment. <g>) So I intend to learn and your information will be helpful with that.

Your points are well taken Mikado as are your concerns .

And as to that surgeon being there with more than 150 days of training. Lets also hope that he is smart and capable and able to see the subtle changes in a human condition. Otherwise he might have just said ... the guys gone, on to the next problem. Victoria

[Victoria Steele]

Amalie,

Your observation:
Thus we have a situation where a space application will be supported by US agencies if it has a military or defense application because money is available for that purpose , but if a space application has a non-invasive and developmental application for civil society requirements, no provision can generally be made."

That made me think of the recent development of the " crowd control ray" I am sure you have seen it all. Its some sort of microwave ray that can dispurse crowds without actually hurting anyone. You know why it hasn't gotten the military financial support that it has needed? No lie. Its not lethal! The military has not backed it financially ...because it doesn't kill the enemy. THERES some of the problem of our thinking.

I think that Dr. Brown said the very same thing in one of his first notebooks, that if the same amount of money could be spent on the control of gravity as was being spent on missile development, we would all have had it by now. I sense that the mind set is the thing that must somehow change first and that will not happen as long as we are worried about " maintaining the high ground,in this case, space " and that we have to make sure all of our arament supplies are well stocked. Victoria

[Mikado14]

I think we all took what she said in our own way and its my time here to jump in and say a couple of things to you Mikado Don't take that little title up in the corner seriously. You may not " enforce" the thinking styles here on the forum, political or not.

First off Victoria, I didn't put that name up in the corner, someone else did and at the time I did question it. Secondly, my post was in response to her, not you. If you believe that I am attempting to "enforce" thinking upon this forum then perhaps I don't belong here for I never ONCE ever saw it that way. People citing misinterpretation of standing science and that using that very same misinterpretation on fringe physics goes along way to discredit us on any hypothesis that we may present. If that is enforcing a thinking style than so be it, I am guilty of such.

" Get the friggin' politics off of here." NOOOOO..... I don't think so ....... and if I want to make a political statement as I noticed Linda Brown made .... I will do it. I won't roll it up in a magazine and beat you to death with it, I promise. But you might have to listen to some political zeal from my end of this thing before this season is out.

We do not live in caves. Politics is part of how things get done in this world. I have a right to talk about all of that and this is an open forum until Paul shuts it down. I intend to be respectful, I promise. But at some point along this line you will probably all hear from me on this score.

Politics. Thank You Victoria for this. You are correct and I have been blind, politics is into everything and has decimated my life and family up until now, I wish I could give you the links but I won't, and you have me starting to rethink a certain position of my current standing. Politics. It creeps into all that exists, the many guiding the few via their apathy. What if one was on the verge of something truly amazing? And that someone had their head buried in the sand. Thank You for pulling my head out, I will be rethinking were I am at. You have truly given me an epiphany that I don't know how to react to but my inclination is to go back into hiding.

And as to that surgeon being there with more than 150 days of training. Lets also hope that he is smart and capable and able to see the subtle changes in a human condition. Otherwise he might have just said ... the guys gone, on to the next problem. Victoria

There are times that I wish that I were that lucky. There is a thing called quality of life.

For the women:

Amharc, mná ag obair lá 's mall san oíche,
Ceolann siad ar laetha geal, a bhí,
Bealach fada anonn 's anall a chóich.


Mikado

[htmagic]

There are countries that are not democratic or operate under a constitution.

Yes, like the United States with King George II (Bush) ramming the (un)Patriot Act down our American throats.

And our Constitution has been mostly gone for a long time now and most haven't even seen it.
Step inside a courtroom and talk to a judge about your Constitutional rights.
You'll be basically laughed at all the way to jail...

Amalie, please don't get upset with the Enforcer. He'll call you on a question when you meant that others may have questions on a statement made on the forum. We have to watch the weasel words too, but I found a little cute white mascot to take care of them for us! (Look up weasel in the search box and see my message with the image of my mascot.)

Religion and politics, hoo boy! Two sore subjects for some people. But we are so "politically correct" we are no earthly good anymore, and when you share you faith with someone, you can be attacked. But I cannot judge and the Bible commands us 'to judge not, lest we be judged.' I have enough things to improve in my own life before I judge another. But I will not shirk from a command that Christ gave us to witness either.

As for the candidates. I vote for neither!
I like Ron Paul but the media shut him down quick and didn't even give him a chance to speak or debate as the others.
The media also examined Hillary's life under a microscope but doesn't give the same scrutiny of Barak Hussein Obama. And when stuff does come out about him, it ignites a firestorm. I DID like Mikado's comment about a surgeon with only 150 days experience. Thanks, that made my day!

By the way Victoria, the point he was making was an "expert" having so little training. Kind of like a certain political candidate. 4 years total experience, even less than a junior senator from NY and he (Barak) campaigned 2 out of 4 years. And all those "laws" he got passed, read up on it and you may see another empty promise. He's lucky if he had 150 days "real" experience. Now Mikado, make sure that the surgeon had allies with biohazard experts and known terrorists. Think Bill Ayers for what, Secretary of War? http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/wright-aye ... the-bible/

Be careful of a slick salesman, a smooth talker that came from nowhere that promises you the moon, the sun, and the stars! Because you may not end up with what you thought you wanted. The President has some power but the laws are made by Congress, you know that House and Senate. We have had a Democratic Congress now for a number of years. As a result, you have HAD the change that Mr. Obama has been talking about:

• * A recession if not a depression
  * High oil prices and no place to dig for more
  * A housing bust

And I could go on. People have to realize that the President controls the economy about as much as Hoover was supposed to cause the Great Depression. Linda, and others from California: Did I hear right in that Arnold (the Govenator) has reduced the state employees to minimum wage? Really? Did the prices over there drop as well? No, I didn't think so. Everything has gone up except our paychecks. Those state employees could form a class action suit to sue the STATE of CALIFORNIA. And they could win and I could show them how as I learned how the law really operates (by contract law, forget your Constitution in their courtrooms). Being a federal employee removes some of your Constitutional rights, but this may apply to the state as well. That would be the only legal reason for them to pull the stunt on the state employee's salaries.

Since we were sold into slavery in secret and didn't even realize it, mankind has been struggling to break free of the chains that bind him. http://www.the7thfire.com/Politics%20an ... land-1.htm
Some escape through alcohol and drugs, while others escape to alternate realities in a digital world with digital money, doing things they could not or dare not in their real world. And ignoring their kids while doing so. And the kids coping by living in their alternate realities of Nintendo WIIs, Gameboys, and other computer games. It is sad that they are not enjoying life to its fullest as designated by the Creator.

Amalie, as for policy, consider this. The US signed a treaty that said we would have 10 years to destroy our declared stockpile of chemical (warfare) agents. That was in 1997 under Clinton. Do you think we met the 10 year timetable? Want to take some wagers on that?
Nope! We got a 5 year extension and I'm not so sure if they will make that date either! And we are one of the better nations that signed the Chemical Weapons Convention (CWC) treaty!? The Russians don't hardly have any funding for the destruction of their stockpiles. And that's the point, policy is driven by funding. If it is open, it is subject to scrutiny. If it's black, the project could go on forever since the people knows nothing of it. But if it really is my tax dollars funding these black projects, if I can't scrutinized the budget, management, and business operations of these black groups, why should I fund them? Unless I've got a cushy government job for big bucks and sit on my butt all day long like the other government workers?

Be careful of what you ask for, you may get it. Barak's promises of good things sounds appealing until you figure out who's going to pay for it. Jefferson warned us about when the people figured out when they could vote for one that would cater to serving them in their pet projects, that would be the death of America.

It's all about the funding and we are the bank. We sell our souls in slavery for the man to buy the things they want us to buy and keep them rolling in the dough. Change the policy and you'll probably change the funding as well to go in line with that policy. Change the funding and you'll probably be seeing policy being changed. As Kevin says, it's all related!

MagicBill