WIRED on "The AntiGravity Underground"

For a discussion of the science of Townsend Brown, his experiments and his ideas.

Re: WIRED on "The AntiGravity Underground"

Postby Rose » Wed Jul 30, 2008 2:34 am

In tracking Miethe, I find this mention of a possible use of TTB's technology:

It is possible that this basic design is to be found in the foo fighter, (Feuerball, Phoo Bomb),as well as the mysterious Kugelblitz. [My note: Ball Lightning, a weapon system which rotored to bomber height and ejected a disabling "gas" into the bomber wings' engines]It was hinted above that this design may be the basis of the Schildkroete but it could also be the basis for other German saucer projects.

Many writer attribute field propulsion to the foo fighter. This is because of its luminosity, its flight pattern and its alleged disruption of ignition based aircraft engines. Another possibility is that it was a jet propelled flying machine but with one addition. It is possible that a T.T. Brown-type of flame-jet generator was attached to its exhaust nozzles and the appropriate insulation added on the surface of the craft. With this addition, the exhaust gasses would become enriched with negative ions. So would the air in the surrounding vicinity. This would have resulted in the short-circuiting of the target aircraft's engines should such variables as the wind have been just right. The fact that it apparently did not always work argues for the variables being in operation. More variables would have accompanied this means of disruption than a purely electromagnetic one since the electromagnetic field would have been present regardless of atmospheric conditions. It other words, the field propulsion vehicle should have always disrupted the bomber's engines.


Also, jut fyi, in the same article:

There are two interesting asides to this story. The first is that on May 1, 1945, one day after Hitler shot himself in the bunker and six days before Germany surrendered, two officers of the Reichsministerium fuer Rustungs und Kriegsproduktion (AlbertSpeer's ministry) arrived at the plant and took all existing examples of the Kugelbitz devices and the plans. Neither the two officers, the devices, nor the plans were ever seen again

http://www.missilegate.com/rfz/chapter5.htm
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Re: WIRED on "The AntiGravity Underground"

Postby Mark Culpepper » Wed Jul 30, 2008 9:52 pm

Rose,

I don't know if this applies but any time I see something like this

" Neither the two officers, the devices, nor the plans were ever seen again"

Where it says " two officers" I start getting the wierdest feeling that we are seeing the Caroline Group in action somehow.

Remember too that Adamski used that same phrase " Two officers" brought him information about his " scout ship".

Just .... wierd. Good work as always Rose. MarkC
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Re: WIRED on "The AntiGravity Underground"

Postby FM No Static At All » Thu Jul 31, 2008 12:06 am

Rose and all,
This is from that same site!
http://www.missilegate.com/rfz/swaz/chapter1.htm
The end of the Second World War in Europe, at least as normally recounted, does not make sense, for in its standard form as learned in history books that history resembles nothing so much as a badly written finale to some melodramatic Wagnerian opera.

On a night in October 1944, a German pilot and rocket expert by the same of Hans Zinsser was flying his Heinkel 111 twin engine bomber in twilight over northern Germany, close to the Baltic coast in the province of Mecklenburg. He was flying at twilight to avoid the Allied fighter aircraft that at that time had all but undisputed mastery of the skies over Germany. Little did he know that what he saw that night would be locked in the vaults of the highest classification of the United States government for several decades after the war. And he certainly could not have been aware of the fact when his testimony finally was declassified near the end of the millennium, that what he saw would require the history of the Second World War to be rewritten, or at the very minimum, severely scrutinized. His observations on that one night on that one flight resolve at a stroke some of the most pressing questions and mysteries concerning the end of the war. By the same token, what he saw raises many more mysteries and questions, affording a brief and frightening glimpse into the labyrinthine world of Nazi secret weapons development. His observations open a veritable Pandora's box of horrifying research the Third Reich was conducting, research far more horrendous in its scope and terrible promise than mere atomic bombs. More importantly, his observations also raise the disturbing question of why the Allied governments - America in particular - kept so much classified for so long. What, really, did we recover from the Nazis at the end of the war?


And Paul, like you have said so many times as you learned more about TTB, you found "more questions than answers."

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Uh Boy

Postby Paul S. » Thu Jul 31, 2008 3:44 am

FM No Static At All wrote:And Paul, like you have said so many times as you learned more about TTB, you found "more questions than answers."


Oh yeah, missilegate.com.

"Reich of the Black Sun" by Joseph P. Farrell. Got it right here in front of me.

That's where I got the idea about the "Allied Legend" of the end of WWII in Chapter 51: Quantum Germans. In fact, there was as link to that book in the chapter when it was online.

It's possibly a viable notion: that there is more than meets the eye vis-a-vis the Allies version of what all was going on in Germany. The "Legend" is that they were working on an A-bomb just like we were, but with much less success. Except that when you scratch the legend a little, you discover... maybe not. There's that business about the Nazis dismissing Relativity as "Jewish physics" and focusing instead on quantum mechanics, which was considered more "German" science.

That's the supposition that allows me to ruminate, "if they weren't working on a bomb, what were they working on? Maybe it was the "bloody big" quantum bomb that "Marckus" warned Cook about in Hunt for Zero Point. Hence the "Black Sun."

I like a lot of what Farrell tries to say in this book, at least in the opening chapter(s). Unfortunately, "Reich of the Black Sun" is published by Adventures Unlimited Press, the same outfit that is owned by and publishes all of David Hatcher Childress's stuff. Which is....ummm... well, let's just say it ranks pretty high on the "William Moore Scale of Believability." Adventures Unlimited also published the latest edition of Vassilatos' "Lost Science," too, and you all know what I high opinion I have of that epic work.

I suppose there's something to this stuff; It's easy enough to assume that "where there's smoke, there's fire," as I read in another book today that was trying to make a case for TPX. But like I said to somebody about that, sometimes, "where there's smoke.... there's a smoke bomb."

And sometimes, maybe it's just a "bloody big bomb."

That said, I should add: My intuition on all this is that as long as we're focused on the "Foo Fighters" or whatever you want to call them, that we're on the right track. That is, after all, what Dr. Brown jumped out of an airplane from 600 feet behind enemy lines in 1945 to investigate. And weren't they sorta like "controlled ball lightning?" And wasn't the instruction to "stick with "ball lightning" like spit on chewing gum" ?

Or something like that.

G'night, Gracie.

--PS
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aka "The Perfesser"
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Re: Uh Boy

Postby natecull » Thu Jul 31, 2008 5:49 am

Paul S. wrote:That said, I should add: My intuition on all this is that as long as we're focused on the "Foo Fighters" or whatever you want to call them, that we're on the right track. That is, after all, what Dr. Brown jumped out of an airplane from 600 feet behind enemy lines in 1945 to investigate. And weren't they sorta like "controlled ball lightning?" And wasn't the instruction to "stick with "ball lightning" like spit on chewing gum" ?


One I mentioned earlier: Ronald Richter's 1949-1951 Dr No setup in Argentina. Any potential similarities?
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=6&p=16781&hilit=fusion#p16781
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Re: Uh Boy

Postby htmagic » Thu Jul 31, 2008 10:29 am

Paul S. wrote:I like a lot of what Farrell tries to say in this book, at least in the opening chapter(s). Unfortunately, "Reich of the Black Sun" is published by Adventures Unlimited Press, the same outfit that is owned by and publishes all of David Hatcher Childress's stuff. Which is....ummm... well, let's just say it ranks pretty high on the "William Moore Scale of Believability." Adventures Unlimited also published the latest edition of Vassilatos' "Lost Science," too, and you all know what I high opinion I have of that epic work.
<SNIP>
That said, I should add: My intuition on all this is that as long as we're focused on the "Foo Fighters" or whatever you want to call them, that we're on the right track. That is, after all, what Dr. Brown jumped out of an airplane from 600 feet behind enemy lines in 1945 to investigate. And weren't they sorta like "controlled ball lightning?" And wasn't the instruction to "stick with "ball lightning" like spit on chewing gum" ?

Or something like that.

G'night, Gracie.

--PS

Paul,

Funny you should talk about David Hatcher Childress. I am reading a book by him now. Actually, it appears that he scraped up a bunch of notes and published them in a book. Some of the things he talks about in his antigravity book are the very subjects we have talked about on this forum.

Hey, maybe I could scrape together all the notes from this forum and put them in a book like he did! :wink:
Although I haven't found any earth shattering things, there a some nuggets of truth in there. For instance, Dr. Brown I believe mentions Brush. Well, Charles Brush is reported to:
Wikipedia wrote:Between 1910 and 1929 he wrote several papers on his version of a kinetic theory of gravitation, based on some sort of electromagnetic waves. He died on June 15, 1929.


Childress says Brush talked about high frequency EM waves. Isn't that what Dr. Brown essentially says. Do they not agree?

Say Goodnight, Gracie!

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Re: Uh Boy

Postby natecull » Thu Jul 31, 2008 11:07 am

htmagic wrote:Childress says Brush talked about high frequency EM waves. Isn't that what Dr. Brown essentially says. Do they not agree?


Now where did I read something just the other day about gravity being potentially at the high end of the EM spectrum? J M Brown in the Douglas docs maybe? It's obviously an idea that has some currency among those of a certain common strain of thought.

Seems counterintuitive to me though. I think of gravity, the long-range force, as being like the deep booming bass notes of the cosmic symphony, EM the midrange, and the strong force tinkling up into the ultrasonics.

Course, if it is an ultra low-frequency wave, we're kind of stuffed looking for saucer-sized loopholes since that would mean making any kind of G-sized gravity modification would need a planet-sized mass. Which is the conventional wisdom.
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Re: WIRED on "The AntiGravity Underground"

Postby Elizabeth Helen Drake » Thu Jul 31, 2008 10:12 pm

"J M Brown in the Douglas docs maybe?"

HUH? More information on the background of this comment, pretty please.

I remember something about " Douglas docs" but my mind has gone " fizzy" as a friend once said. Thanks. Elizabeth
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Re: WIRED on "The AntiGravity Underground"

Postby natecull » Fri Aug 01, 2008 5:11 am

Elizabeth Helen Drake wrote:"J M Brown in the Douglas docs maybe?"

HUH? More information on the background of this comment, pretty please.

I remember something about " Douglas docs" but my mind has gone " fizzy" as a friend once said. Thanks. Elizabeth


http://www.checktheevidence.com/DouglasDocs/
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Re: WIRED on "The AntiGravity Underground"

Postby natecull » Fri Aug 01, 2008 5:16 am

(Redirected from Project EKG thread)

greggvizza wrote: That is, unless you have a B2 that needs 10MV for the leading edge of the wings and all that wonderful jet exhaust is otherwise just going to waste.


This is where I keep getting my head fried trying to make any sense of Townsend Brown's career. There seems to be no single point of continuity between any of these approaches and some of them flat-out contradict each other. Which is the mark of either a failure, or someone who isn't interested in the specifics of his inventions, or is deliberately laying chaff (the latter I find somewhat hard to believe).


Gravitors: the classic 'Biefeld-Brown effect' and Townsend's first love. Was working on these from 1928-1958 after which they appear to vanish from the radar. Effect seems to require unconventional physics (some kind of ether theory) but no agreement on what kind of physics required or even on what exactly the effect is. Something to do with asymmetric capacitors and transient voltages. Works in a vacuum. Pitched as a ship propulsion concept. Very few known replications if any. Requires physics that links gravity and electromagnetism, suggests possibly ether, but may not necessarily need to contradict Einstein.

Flame jet: retrofit for a jet plane, needs conventional fuel, gets you millions of volts giving what, stealth bonus? Weight bonus? Urban legend persists that the B-2 uses this, but evidence seems slim.

Ionocraft-type MHD: Publicised by de Seversky in the 1960s (who may or may not be linkable to Brown). Popularised in association with Brown's name in the 2000s. Seems that could pair with a flame jet very well, is grounded in conventional ion-wind physics, seems perfectly doable: and yet is the one which doesn't seem to have been pursued. Doesn't fly in a vacuum. Variants might fly in liquid dielectric, which seawater very definitely is not, though presumably 'caterpillar drive' MHD concepts work on a related principle.

Adamski saucer analyses: hard to tell if there's any scientific reality here, yet Brown seemed to put high credence in Adamski's tale. Big on 'ion vortexes'. Seemed to think there was something about a 'central pillar' being a storage device. No conventional chemical/atomic fuel source. First-hand reports and Brown's NICAP involvement suggest he was a UFO believer and held to the ET hypothesis.

Tri-arcuate discs: seem to be a cross between gravitors, ionocraft and Adamski reverse engineering. Conflicting accounts as to whether / how well the discs flew in a vacuum, whether it was all an elaborate distraction to play down the concept, whether the 'real' development was in submarine propulsion. Seem to require high-K ceramic dieelectrics (barium titanate) and possibly millions of volts, so maybe paired with flame jet. Use ion vortexes like Adamski saucer. Might or might not use the Biefeld-Brown effect. Might or might not use ion wind. Might or might not create a local gravity field. Mikado and Andrew presumably have built some, or something similar?

Gravitational communications: pitched as a potential concept spinoff of the gravitor work. Logical extrapolation of any form of gravity control, possibly achievable much earlier using smaller effects. Might or might not have ever been built. Attributes: secrecy, instantaneous communication. Twigsnapper suggested it was deployed as the basis of a 1950s-60s US nuclear-response system. Might or might not also be used as the basis of Caroline Group communications. Suggestion it or similar principles might cross over into communication with 'non-human' or 'off-world' intelligences, which might or might not be linked with 'afterlife communications'. Might or might not be linked with the otherwise stock standard shortwave radio set Brown was always seen with. Achievement of this would suggest that gravity control had been achieved at least on a small scale yet Brown was still playing with pure science rather than technological development late in life, suggesting his functioning achievements in this area were slight.

Gravitational isotopes: Suggestion that various materials may have anomalously heavy or light 'gravitational isotopes' as distinct from normal atomic-weight isotopes. Multiple materials and multiple means of 'excitation' or gravitational charging suggested including triboexcitation, photo-excitation via sunlight. Patents filed for methods of beneficiation of such materials yet in 1973 Brown writes in his notes that a basic experiment needed to even confirm the fundamental theory had not yet been done. Requires that gravity not be linked to inertia, which not only contradicts Einstein, but just about every other alternative unified field theory except the very exotic (and not rigorously defined) ones.

Triboexcitation of sand: supposedly demonstrated, though not under laboratory conditions, and replications are scarce. Gets you temporarily lighter or 'gravitationally susceptible' materials, maybe stores a small electric charge. Doesn't seem very practical for much of anything unless you can scale it up. Brown seemed to believe in Atlantis theories and that ancient Egypt used this effect to build the pyramids, which may require believing non-standard history. Links to gravitational isotopes. Similarities to some predictions from Kozyrev's theory of 'time flow' which is decidedly non-mainstream, and does not involve a theory of gravitational isotopes.

'The fan': ionic air conditioner worked on in the 1960s with Linda, later spinoff commercialised as the Sharper Image Ionic Breeze. No moving parts. His 'ashtray product'. Seems like it would be based on perfectly mainstream, well-understood ion wind / MHD physics, with absolutely no modification of relativity required. Considered a cute but second-rate kind of device currently. However anecdotally, Edward Teller said he couldn't figure how it worked, and Sharper Image have had major problems with it producing toxic ozone, suggesting there may be more subtlety to the original. Twigsnapper suggests an early model was used as air conditioner in WW2 for Winston Churchill's plane. That would suggest a 20 year gap between military deployment and civilian technology transfer. Bill Lear was very interested in it in the 1960s, yet the technology saw no deployment in his known plane designs.

The Wikipedia article for 'Ionic Breeze' lumps it in with the broader class of air ionizers, which I'm not sure if The Fan was originally intended to be. Ionizers where hugely popular in the 1980s from many manufacturers but are now out of favour. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ionic_breeze

'The loudspeaker': may be connected to the 'fan', a large movie-theatre sized loudspeaker with no moving parts said to deliver extraordinary sound quality by modulating ion wind. Seems to require no new physics either. Appeared to have been developed in the 1960s in strangely high commercial secrecy according to Linda's memories.

A fairly technically skilled engineer friend of mine in the music business says 'this sounds like a perfectly ordinary electrostatic loudspeaker'. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrostatic_loudspeaker If so, this is not very interesting as Brown was definitely not the first to invent the concept, and while this concept of device has good sound quality it has a lot of drawbacks that prevent it from seeing wide use. If this can be proven it suggests that Brown while being a good engineer did not in fact have any particular advanced insight and was merely pursuing known designs.

Electrostatic cooling: an electrostatic technology involving ion wind and/or new physics which surfaced in 1973 and is claimed in both mainstream and non-mainstream publications to have many deployed conventional weapons applications in lasers, fuel-air explosives, and military welding. No suggestion of violations of relativity or gravity control, however still considered 'deep black'. Linked to the PROMIS/INSLAW 'Octopus' drug/arms-smuggling investigation which appears credible and ongoing. Brown's name has been linked to this technology by some sources but no suggestion he was personally involved. If a link to Brown can be proven this suggests both that he was indeed in advance of the state of the art, and that his work was both known to and remains classified by the US military, but also that they may have had difficulty further developing the technology.

Sidereal radiation: a form of radiation (possibly electromagnetic, possibly gravitic) claimed to be detected by Brown and a defining passion throughout his life, alongside the gravitor. Possibly associated with neutrinos, possibly not. Unknown what state replication is at and whether it implies relativistic or non-relativistic physics. Suggestions it confirms ether theories but no precise mechanism given for this. No known successful attempt made to 'scale it up' and never achieved mainstream scientific credibility.

Petrovoltaics: linked to gravitational isotopes and possibly sidereal radiation. Suggestion that gravity can cause some rocks to heat anomalously and/or generate electrical currents. Possibly a form of 'free energy'. Replications scarce if any.

Operation Argus: Brown was present at this, how and why given his other associations? Involved high-altitude ionospheric studies, precursor to HAARP (though HAARP uses far lower energies). Suggests *extremely* high-level involvement in the US atomic physics establishment despite his otherwise very low profile.

Project DUMAND: Underwater neutrino observatory, unsure extent of Brown's involvement

Electroculture: Investigating effects of electricity on plant life, was this linked to petrovoltaics or a 'cover' for other research?

Moon dust fountains: Brown seems exceptionally prescient with his 1950s observation/prediction of 'day/night' lofting/rising cycles of lunar dust. This is confirmed by very recent NASA observations and is considered an ongoing scientific question. http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2005 ... ntains.htm Brown considered the effect to be both photoelectric/electrostatic and gravitational. This would suggest that Apollo moon dust (as opposed to moon rocks) might demonstrate his 'gravitational isotope' effect yet no such claim has ever been made after 40 years of lunar materials study.

Radar and atomic work: the more 'mundane' aspects of Brown's career are easy to forget, for me. Presumably a lot of work with radar at NRL, *potentially* but unproven work with pre-Manhattan uranium enrichment at NRL (certainly his boss seemed to have been into it), and work with 'whatever' at Vega Aircraft in 1942.

German technology: claim that he parachuted into Germany in 1945 to recover as yet unknown technology, suggestion (any proof?) that it was linked to Foo Fighters, which appear to have some link to ball lightning and/or plasma

Personal psychic gifts: suggestions that Brown could somehow 'see the future' and had some kind of 'cosmic revelation' in the 1920s. Neither of these claims are unique to Brown: Walter Russell and Buckminster Fuller also reported 'cosmic' experiences in the 1920s and built non-conventional theories of physics. 'Psychic' insight is a common phenomenon as ESP and remote viewing studies have shown, but can be difficult to 'scale up'. People who have psychic experiences and scientific backgrounds often are drawn to alternate physics as ESP defies the Einsteinian lightspeed barrier suggesting relativity is wrong or at best incomplete.


Hard to put all these together, for me.
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Re: WIRED on "The AntiGravity Underground"

Postby greggvizza » Fri Aug 01, 2008 1:34 pm

natecull wrote:A fairly technically skilled engineer friend of mine in the music business says 'this sounds like a perfectly ordinary electrostatic loudspeaker'. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrostatic_loudspeaker If so, this is not very interesting as Brown was definitely not the first to invent the concept, and while this concept of device has good sound quality it has a lot of drawbacks that prevent it from seeing wide use. If this can be proven it suggests that Brown while being a good engineer did not in fact have any particular advanced insight and was merely pursuing known designs.

The TTB speaker is not the same as an electrostatic speaker. The latter uses a vibrating Mylar diaphragm to vibrate air, which is not all that different in operation from a conventional magnetic voice coil style speaker. There were no moving parts or diaphragms in the TTB speaker.

See the previous speaker discussion.
http://www.ttbrown.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=308&p=14461&hilit=electrostatic+speaker#p14461

GV
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Re: WIRED on "The AntiGravity Underground"

Postby natecull » Fri Aug 01, 2008 1:49 pm

greggvizza wrote:The TTB speaker is not the same as an electrostatic speaker. The latter uses a vibrating Mylar diaphragm to vibrate air, which is not all that different in operation from a conventional magnetic voice coil style speaker. There were no moving parts or diaphragms in the TTB speaker.

See the previous speaker discussion.
http://www.ttbrown.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=308&p=14461&hilit=electrostatic+speaker#p14461

GV


The Wikipedia page is not comprehensive. The type my friend was familiar with do not necessarily have a diaphragm. He said yes, you can add a diaphragm to increase the airflow but you don't have to and several models he tinkered with (or personally built) didn't. Their advantage was that they had very good sound reproduction owing to the no moving parts, but the disadvantage was that they put out a substantial breeze, and that you would need one the size of a movie theatre wall to get any decent loudness of sound from it. Well, the speaker was that big wasn't it?

If you like I can try to nail him down to specific models and manufacturers. It's possible perhaps that the Brown speaker technology did made its way into the commercial world after all.

But this low airflow problem seems to also be claimed for the Ionic Breeze. I'm wondering if the trick of the original Brown speaker and fan was that they produced more airflow than conventional ion wind techniques did?
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Re: WIRED on "The AntiGravity Underground"

Postby htmagic » Fri Aug 01, 2008 2:08 pm

Nate,

This is excellent! A dictionary of the terms and various operations TTB worked on!
I started a new thread under General Discussions called Dictionary of Thomas Townsend Brown.
Go here:
http://www.ttbrown.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=569&p=17027#p17026

Don't forget beneficiation and I'm sure there are many more terms to add...

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Re: WIRED on "The AntiGravity Underground"

Postby Paul S. » Fri Aug 01, 2008 2:15 pm

natecull wrote:This is where I keep getting my head fried trying to make any sense of Townsend Brown's career. There seems to be no single point of continuity between any of these approaches and some of them flat-out contradict each other. Which is the mark of either a failure, or someone who isn't interested in the specifics of his inventions, or is deliberately laying chaff (the latter I find somewhat hard to believe).


As he has done in the past, nate has shown a comprehensive grasp of the issues.


Check out nate's post from March re: the Epilogue:

viewtopic.php?f=12&t=497&p=13280&hilit=+organisations#p13280

And Twigsnapper would have us believe that if we can find the place where all those trails END, then, like the Mounties, we've found our man.

Let's see, we put your fried head with my exploding head and what do we have ?

Popcorn for brains?

--PS
Paul Schatzkin
aka "The Perfesser"
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Re: WIRED on "The AntiGravity Underground"

Postby natecull » Fri Aug 01, 2008 2:57 pm

Paul S. wrote:And Twigsnapper would have us believe that if we can find the place where all those trails END, then, like the Mounties, we've found our man.

Let's see, we put your fried head with my exploding head and what do we have ?

Popcorn for brains?

--PS


Mmm, popcorn.

I do get a sense, as you've mentioned, that there's this dark outline of *something* solid unifying his life. Like a ship underwater (or a hull above?) But heck if I can figure what it is.
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