WIRED on "The AntiGravity Underground"

For a discussion of the science of Townsend Brown, his experiments and his ideas.

Re: WIRED on "The AntiGravity Underground"

Postby natecull » Fri Jul 18, 2008 3:00 am

This is the current conventional state of the art in chucking-small-charged-rocks-out-the-back ion engines.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ion_engines

Note the ISP and thrust values. Field Emission and Liquid cesium gets the best ISP (ie, efficient use of reaction mass) at 6000-10000, but absolutely miniscule thrust (max of 1 *milli* Newton). You need 10 Newtons to accelerate *1 kilogram* at 1G. Your average small satellite weighs several thousand kilograms.

Best conventional thrust appears to be the experimental Magnetoplasmadynamic with hydrogen reaction mass - a whopping 60 Newtons using 7.5 kilowatts. The power of a couple of bar heaters and it could hover a whole 6 Kgs of mass in a 1G field. that's actually pretty darn good. But you won't build a saucer with it.

Edit: sorry, brain-slip. Not 7.5 kilowatts. 7.5 megawatts. The power of a diesel-electric locomotive. To hover 6kg.
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Re: I don't know, but any expert could tell you...

Postby Mikado14 » Fri Jul 18, 2008 1:52 pm

htmagic wrote:
Mikado14 wrote:You are the one who in the original quote above who implied a claim that barium titanate would emit ions. Either it does or it doesn't and your short answer is all that was or is necessary.

Mikado

We know barium titanate (BaTiO3) is a dielectric. A subset of dielectrics are electrets which carry a charge. I suspect barium titanate is an electret. And if that is true, electrons are emitted. If an electron moves one way, it can ionize an atom and turn it into an ion (in air) that moves as well. So it doesn't really eject ions but electrons and the ions move secondarily.

Bottom line, you don't know, you "suspect".


Also, I know titanium dioxide is photo-catalytic and I suspect so would be BaTiO3. If a photon hits the surface and releases an electron, it could energize the surface. Typically this would happen in the ultraviolet (UV) range but I'm not sure if it is long or short wave UV. The more energetic the UV, I would suspect more electrons and activity. Add the high voltage from an electrokinetic generator and I suspect this would really enhance the effect.

Another "suspect".

By the way, using barium titanate in a vacuum would still move the craft as there would be a stream of electrons moving from the charged surface. And if these BaTiO3 materials were shaped like a teardrop or pointed electrodes were used and the barium titanate material vaporized at the point of the high voltage corona, it would eject an ion stream that could propel the craft. So that is a second theory that I proposed for ions from a ceramic material. Do you have any theories or speculations, Mikado?

And when the teardrop is gone the pilot drops tears.

That was the long answer, Mikado. The short answer is that we know TTB used it as it probably worked. Did he try every element as Edison would have (with 99% perspiration, 1% inspiration)? I don't know but he was into some exotic materials like cesium, osmium, and some other rare elements.

I do hope you have a mouse in your pocket. Barium Titanate is what you know of, what about the materials you do not know about? You make short conclusive statements and then it requires posts to clarify. A bit of advice, and you don't have to listen to a damn thing I say, make a definitive statement, give a definitive answer if "allowed", not hypothesis or what you suspect for your original statement is suspect and smiley faces do not hide sarcasm.

Mikado



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Re: I don't know, but any expert could tell you...

Postby htmagic » Fri Jul 18, 2008 9:26 pm

Mikado14 wrote:
htmagic wrote:We know barium titanate (BaTiO3) is a dielectric. A subset of dielectrics are electrets which carry a charge. I suspect barium titanate is an electret. And if that is true, electrons are emitted. If an electron moves one way, it can ionize an atom and turn it into an ion (in air) that moves as well. So it doesn't really eject ions but electrons and the ions move secondarily.

Bottom line, you don't know, you "suspect".


Mikado, I said suspect because I haven't done the tests to determine it. As a Chemical Engineer, I can tell you that like compounds have like properties. Andrew our geologist can confirm this. For instance, barium titanate is made from titanium dioxide. I know titanium dioxide has photocatalytic properties. From this I reason so must barium titanate, although I haven't performed the test to confirm this. So what is it that causes you to comment on me suspecting something and tossing it out into the group for discussion? Because I can believe we can learn something from everybody. And I am far from the expert no did I profess to be. Since you know it is ceramic, why didn't you tell us more of what you know about it? Did you realize it has piezoelectric properties? And piezoelectric transducers were reported to be able to have antigravity type properties. http://esapub.esrin.esa.it/pff/pffv6n3/stiv6n3.htm[/b]

Mikado14 wrote:
htmagic wrote:Also, I know titanium dioxide is photo-catalytic and I suspect so would be BaTiO3. If a photon hits the surface and releases an electron, it could energize the surface. Typically this would happen in the ultraviolet (UV) range but I'm not sure if it is long or short wave UV. The more energetic the UV, I would suspect more electrons and activity. Add the high voltage from an electrokinetic generator and I suspect this would really enhance the effect.

Another "suspect".


Mikado, why do you have a problem with this? Do you have something to tell us?


Mikado14 wrote:
htmagic wrote:By the way, using barium titanate in a vacuum would still move the craft as there would be a stream of electrons moving from the charged surface. And if these BaTiO3 materials were shaped like a teardrop or pointed electrodes were used and the barium titanate material vaporized at the point of the high voltage corona, it would eject an ion stream that could propel the craft. So that is a second theory that I proposed for ions from a ceramic material. Do you have any theories or speculations, Mikado?

And when the teardrop is gone the pilot drops tears.


And hopefully there will be an ejection seat to use at that time to prevent the tears or tears. :shock:

Mikado14 wrote:I do hope you have a mouse in your pocket.


And what does that mean?

Mikado14 wrote:Barium Titanate is what you know of, what about the materials you do not know about? You make short conclusive statements and then it requires posts to clarify. A bit of advice, and you don't have to listen to a damn thing I say, make a definitive statement, give a definitive answer if "allowed", not hypothesis or what you suspect for your original statement is suspect and smiley faces do not hide sarcasm.

Mikado

Mikado,

Now if I have offended you please forgive me as I did not mean to. As to what I know or not know it is not for you to judge. I for one, did not know hypotheses were not allowed on this forum! I'm glad you clarified the rules as Enforcer! :mrgreen:

Since musing were permitted before, call them musings of a hobbitt or Bilbo Baggins or some such sort...

Peace,

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Re: WIRED on "The AntiGravity Underground"

Postby natecull » Sat Jul 19, 2008 8:13 am

Here's Stan Deyo's chapter 'Electro-Dynamic Propulsion' from Cosmic Conspiracy:

http://au.geocities.com/psyberplasmic/ccX-6.html

9. Partially due to hot spots in the shell circuit, and 'laminar fluid lock' at the boundary layer on the surface-to-fluid interface, a pulse rate has to be induced into the transfer circuit.

For example, if the fluid flow rate were 1000 fps and the radius of the craft were such that the arc of the radius was 20 feet, then a pulse rate of 50 hz would give a circuit power wavelength of 20 feet or the exact length of the area (d) to the rim arc length. By peaking the power wave at the three points on the underskirting's periphery, the turn (or curl) in the wave can be quite readily conducted to area (e) by the three variable resistors. As the fluid flow rate increases, the field pulse frequency must increase to maintain the same wavelength.

10. An effect that is the electrical equivalent of the "correolis effect" that make, water swirl one way going down a drain will cause the electrical field transfers of the craft to form a vortex as it moves from top to rim to area (e). Also, due to ionization potentials of the particular fluid in which the craft is travelling, there may be visible evidence of the swirling vortex. It will make the craft spin unless contra-torque is applied to hold the craft stable... This contra-torque is supplied by the returning ions on the underside of the craft. (There is, however, a great deal of contra-torque available in the secondary, energy storage mechanism of the air turbine in the practical craft).


Pulsed field, spiralling electrons, vortex. Reminiscent of the cyclotron/magnetron, no?

A lot of this stuff seems to vibe with Brown's 1958 tri-arcuate saucer model. Note the one electrode on top and three electrodes below (hope deep-linking an image from Geocities isn't illegal or just plain impolite - if so I'll remove these links):

Image

and this picture is a similar one that haunted my dreams as a kid:


PRACTICAL ION CRAFT
Let us now look at the practical craft. In figure (11) is a cutaway of the craft showing: the airflow, electric ion flow, field focus ball and rod, turbine tan, plasmoid ion source, field coils, cathode ring, directional anode, navigational ion collectors, landing rods, and crew quarters, etc.


Image

This writeup *seems* to be describing something almost identical to Brown's configuration. But the problem is I can't make head nor tail of the jargon. It's alternately 'real' physics and 'weird' physics, sounding authoritative, and mixed seemingly without regard to what is currently regarded as 'real'.

In a conductor as the voltage and current frequency are raised over a certain value the current is observed to travel mostly in the surface of the conductor. This is commonly referred to as 'the skin effect'. Now in the craft the voltage levels will be in excess of 15,000,000 volts at frequencies up to 150khz... (more than ample to generate the skin effect). If the shell is a high-voltage semiconductor then the current will travel along the outside of the surface and even in the fluid medium in proximity to the surface. Once a current at such a high voltage is started in a particular direction the current tends to be very reluctant to turn sharp corners... because it is starting to have high inertial values. Since the crew and the entire craft are part of the circuit, whenever a direction change is made every molecule of the entire polarized (unified) field is accelerated at such a high rate of change into the new vector that the change appear, uniform, thus bypassing the problem of structural fatigue due to non-uniform inertial shifts. This means that the crew could be having morning tea break and the pilot could turn a corner at 25,000 mph without spilling a drop of tea.




Throughout this exercise in building a hydrodynamic craft the fluid has not been called 'air' for the simple reason that this craft can sail in air, water, or even the fluid of space (often referred to as 'the ether or the fine structure or the quanta sea'). By varying the frequency, power, and voltage levels on an electro-dynamic craft, so-called 'anti-gravity', invisibility, and light-speed translation from point to point are now conceivable. Gravity has frequency... but that is another discussion all unto itself. Another discussion will detail the process for generating and storing extremely high voltage power in the form of plasmoids... (or self-containing plasmas), voltage transforming capacitors, and the rudiments of wireless broadcast of electricity to users around the entire planet... through the use of overlapping VLF standing wave power broadcast network.

Time permitting, this author will later release his papers on the order and origin of electron 'shells' and planetary orbits as functions of convergent and divergent vortexial wave forms in 'fluid space'. As a clue to those who would be interested in such a discussion, the reason that electron shell orbital radii do not apparently follow a progressively greater dimension outward from the nucleus is that they are the sum of two opposed progressions...; one toward the nucleus (as a space-reflected, inertial wave form) and one away from the nucleus (as an energy-centre reflected inertial wave form). These papers will discuss the application of resonating magnetic fields to use the magnetic fields of the Earth and any other rotating magnetic body as not only sources of energy, but also new means of propulsion.
[/quote]

Deyo never did release those follow-up papers, of course. Leastways not publically. Possibly his Halo Project might. I wouldn't hold my breath. But he certainly writes as if he knows *something*.

Is it possible that these diagrams are from some technical documents developed during that crucial 'missing' 1958-1967 period? When the saucers 'went black'? But what on earth happened to them? Why wouldn't you use this technology, if you had it?

It could just be a clever fake. But my gut sense is that this diagram and description 'feels' like it came from that early 1960s period. It's got a sort of 'analog' hardware feel to it, like a Lockheed or NASA technical study. It's advanced, jet-age, but still pretty clunky: fans, rubber seals, recirculating air. It's for an advanced atmosphere craft, not an interplanetary ship. But presumably it could be adapted to both. Whether Deyo wrote this or whether Brown did or someone else I have no idea. Do these passages (and the rest of that page) read like Brown's writing?

I was sure Deyo somewhere compared the workings of 'his' saucers with the magnetron or cyclotron, but I can't find it online - I guess it wasn't in Cosmic Conspiracy, possibly it was in Vindicator Scrolls.

This is possibly the source of part of my weird feeling toward Dr Brown's vortex diagram. But it's not just that I've seen it before and puzzled over it for years. I seem to feel a pull toward that diagram, most especially Brown's one and not Deyo's one, because it seems to be implying something different and deeper than 'just' an exotic means of propulsion.

I get a sense of a space-time bubble 'pinching off' and somehow becoming its own 'pocket universe', for as long as the field/vortex persists. A sort of tame singularity - that such a ship, if fully powered up, would literally vanish not because it was bending light or was plasma-sheathed, but because it literally *would not exist* in our normal kind of space. Where it would 'go', I don't know. That idea is something that I don't think either Brown or Deyo are saying in their diagrams here, so why I feel that I don't know either. But it's very strong and it's there. I also have no idea what that means in real physics, or frankly how to make *any* of these descriptions add up with either conventional physics or any of the other fringe physics models I've studied.

The language resonates with other fringe writings and 'feels' authentic, but I can't really parse it - it's written assuming a whole body of knowledge I don't have. Even now. Anyone wanna try and crack the riddle?

Edit: Looking at Deyo's 'HALO Orbital' site - http://haloorbital.com/ - I see the logo is a set of two concentric 'shells' at 90 degrees about a 'nucleus'. Is that a reference to his 'sum of two opposed progressions' orbital shell model he mentions above?
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Re: I don't know, but any expert could tell you...

Postby Mikado14 » Sat Jul 19, 2008 4:00 pm

htmagic wrote: So what is it that causes you to comment on me suspecting something and tossing it out into the group for discussion? Because I can believe we can learn something from everybody. And I am far from the expert no did I profess to be.


You brought the subject up, I asked a question, not a comment, and you went into a long diatribe that never answered my question. I always ask questions, I would rather ask questions and learn then to listen to myself talk. As to learning something from everbody? Of course, but sometimes when "everybody" has the same questions, it is action that is called for to answer those questions. Hypothesis is the first step, experimentation is second....Try the second.

htmagic wrote: Since you know it is ceramic, why didn't you tell us more of what you know about it? Did you realize it has piezoelectric properties?


Yep....and I am COUNTING on it.

htmagic wrote:And piezoelectric transducers were reported to be able to have antigravity type properties. http://esapub.esrin.esa.it/pff/pffv6n3/stiv6n3.htm[/b]


If I were to answer, I would have to fall on my sword...on purpose. <g>

Mikado14 wrote:
htmagic wrote:Also, I know titanium dioxide is photo-catalytic and I suspect so would be BaTiO3. If a photon hits the surface and releases an electron, it could energize the surface. Typically this would happen in the ultraviolet (UV) range but I'm not sure if it is long or short wave UV. The more energetic the UV, I would suspect more electrons and activity. Add the high voltage from an electrokinetic generator and I suspect this would really enhance the effect.

Another "suspect".


Mikado, why do you have a problem with this? Do you have something to tell us?


Don't confuse cause and effect, I have said this before. As you know, in a capacitor there are two plates and a dielectric. When Dr. Brown "charged" up the capacitor with a Voltage that was high (high is a relative term), an effect was exhibited. If you say that the Votage was the "cause", you would be wrong, it is merely the impetus.

As to having a problem with TiO2, no, I don't. As to your second question, no, not at this time.



Mikado14 wrote:
htmagic wrote:I do hope you have a mouse in your pocket.


And what does that mean?



Here is what you said - "The short answer is that we know TTB used it as it probably worked." I was referring to the word in red. If you still don't understand, well, it is just a feeble attempt at humor that is now over taxed. Oh and by the way, there is another non-specific, "probably".

Mikado14 wrote:
htmagic wrote:Barium Titanate is what you know of, what about the materials you do not know about? You make short conclusive statements and then it requires posts to clarify. A bit of advice, and you don't have to listen to a damn thing I say, make a definitive statement, give a definitive answer if "allowed", not hypothesis or what you suspect for your original statement is suspect and smiley faces do not hide sarcasm.

Mikado



Now if I have offended you please forgive me as I did not mean to. As to what I know or not know it is not for you to judge. I for one, did not know hypotheses were not allowed on this forum! I'm glad you clarified the rules as Enforcer! :mrgreen:

Since musing were permitted before, call them musings of a hobbitt or Bilbo Baggins or some such sort...



A very important statement is said in your paragraph. Let me address your second sentence first. I am not judging you as a person and I want to make it perfectly clear, I am questioning the veracity of your statements and that is a big difference. If you make a short definitive statement as a fact then you better be damn well ready to defend it with FACT or facts as you understand them! There is nothing wrong with being wrong or misunderstanding for if I don't step on my tongue once a day it is a day I didn't learn a thing. If you or anyone else on this forum ever really builds SOMETHING then you better be ready to answer questions. If you believe that I am a harsh critic then you better not build anything for you won't be able to take the heat in the kitchen from the other critics out there. And one more final point, just to have something function doesn't always mean it will be accepted, you must be able to explain how it operates and the principles involved. More questions, again, and your answers will be judged by those critics.

Now to your third sentence - Posting a hypothesis on the forum on anywhere for public perusal will always open yourself to criticism which from your perspective could be viewed as being judgmental. Now as to your sentence on clarifying the rules, your sarcasm has been noted.

Now, as to your first sentence, I am offended when I ask a specific question and I receive an answer that is anything but that. If you can't answer, tell me so and I will trust in the veracity of your statement.

Here is a simple and direct question: Have you ever worked in an R & D situation? If the answer is yes, no further explanation is required, if your answer is no, then saying anymore is pointless. You needn't answer, the question is rhetorical and open to anyone.

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Re: I don't know, but any expert could tell you...

Postby htmagic » Sat Jul 19, 2008 4:46 pm

Mikado14 wrote:Here is what you said - "The short answer is that we know TTB used it as it probably worked." <SNIP> Oh and by the way, there is another non-specific, "probably".

Mikado,

Exactly! No one can say for sure what worked with Dr. Brown or not! I am surprised Paul was able to write 572 pages on a guy as elusive as smoke or mist in the morning! Good job, Paul! :D

For unless we read it in a patent or his notebooks that were made available to the public, we'll probably never know the full story. Until you build that gravitic communicator and invite me over so we can listen from the horse's mouth! :wink: And while we're at it, it would be interesting in hearing from Josephine as well.

Nate, that information you posted is amazing! All I can say is Wow! I'd like to hear from Mr. Twigsnapper and hear his take on this. Did Nate knock one out of the park with this information, Mr. Twigsnapper?

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Re: WIRED on "The AntiGravity Underground"

Postby twigsnapper » Sat Jul 19, 2008 10:04 pm

Only suggestion I might have is to look at that information, which was for the general public, and look upon it with " forum eyes".

I myself noticed this little thing.

"Gravity has frequency... but that is another discussion all unto itself. Another discussion will detail the process for generating and storing extremely high voltage power in the form of plasmoids... (or self-containing plasmas),"

I challenge the rest of you to rip into this piece looking for things that " vibrate" to an understanding level with you. Even if it just " feels goosebumpy". twigsnapper
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Re: WIRED on "The AntiGravity Underground"

Postby kevin.b » Sat Jul 19, 2008 10:13 pm

Maybe I should ut this on the music thread?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZAvCmS9SDEE
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Re: WIRED on "The AntiGravity Underground"

Postby htmagic » Sun Jul 20, 2008 4:07 am

twigsnapper wrote:Only suggestion I might have is to look at that information, which was for the general public, and look upon it with " forum eyes".

I myself noticed this little thing.

"Gravity has frequency... but that is another discussion all unto itself. Another discussion will detail the process for generating and storing extremely high voltage power in the form of plasmoids... (or self-containing plasmas),"

I challenge the rest of you to rip into this piece looking for things that " vibrate" to an understanding level with you. Even if it just " feels goosebumpy". twigsnapper

Mr. Twigsnapper,

Thanks you for pointing us in the right direction.

I saw this:
http://au.geocities.com/psyberplasmic/ccX-6.html wrote:This fan also cools the containing area for the high-energy-density plasmoid - which some people have seen as a dull red glow in the centre underside of their 'UFO's... and others have reported "...caused scorch marks upon landing." The three balls are landing pads in this version as it is necessary to have a certain distance between the ground and the underside of the craft to allow lift-off without taking great hunks of soil with the craft. The outer hull of the craft has positive and negative curve to compensate for the laminar turbulence (drag curls) that occur at higher velocities. The upper dome is movable vertically and even on a tilt to allow manual control of the recycled air. If the craft is to be sealed, the dome is simply dropped to form a sealed pocket. This of course means the energy expenditure from the field would have to increase to maintain altitude as the recycled air had been stopped.


But most that see these craft do not hear anything and if you were moving enough air to keep the craft aloft, you would hear it. The scorch marks now make sense and so does the plasmoid in the center of the craft.

And I saw this:
http://au.geocities.com/psyberplasmic/ccX-6.html wrote:Another discussion will detail the process for generating and storing extremely high voltage power in the form of plasmoids... (or self-containing plasmas), voltage transforming capacitors, and the rudiments of wireless broadcast of electricity to users around the entire planet... through the use of overlapping VLF standing wave power broadcast network.


So how low for very low frequency (VLF)? Wikipedia says 3 kHz to 30 kHz and the low end is in the audio region. Tesla was working with earth frequencies of around 7.8 Hz. Schumann later discovered the cavity that bears his name. Hmmmm, 3 kHz to 30 kHz, wasn't that the band used to talk to submarines? So the submarine did the lurking while the UFO was high above watching everything. Was this used prior to satellites or are they still in use today?

I am curious about these plasmoids. Was this chamber an evacuated vessel? This looks similar to the plasma diode we discussed elsewhere. Was this the tunnel diode and seeded with cesium? This is the heart of the system but what created the high voltage for the plasma diode? Was this where Dr. Brown's electrokinetic generator was used? :)

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Re: WIRED on "The AntiGravity Underground"

Postby natecull » Sun Jul 20, 2008 5:57 am

kevin.b wrote:Maybe I should ut this on the music thread?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZAvCmS9SDEE
Kevin, if at first you don't succeed.


Definitely!
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Re: WIRED on "The AntiGravity Underground"

Postby natecull » Sun Jul 20, 2008 6:35 am

htmagic wrote:And I saw this:
http://au.geocities.com/psyberplasmic/ccX-6.html wrote:Another discussion will detail the process for generating and storing extremely high voltage power in the form of plasmoids... (or self-containing plasmas), voltage transforming capacitors, and the rudiments of wireless broadcast of electricity to users around the entire planet... through the use of overlapping VLF standing wave power broadcast network.


So how low for very low frequency (VLF)? Wikipedia says 3 kHz to 30 kHz and the low end is in the audio region. Tesla was working with earth frequencies of around 7.8 Hz. Schumann later discovered the cavity that bears his name. Hmmmm, 3 kHz to 30 kHz, wasn't that the band used to talk to submarines? So the submarine did the lurking while the UFO was high above watching everything. Was this used prior to satellites or are they still in use today?


Hmm, that might be conceivable. A one-two reconnaissance punch? Reconnaissance is about the only thing I can think of that would justify deep black secrecy for a real vehicle. And in any case, we've got satellites. What would one of these give you that a satellite wouldn't? (Well, darn near immediate tasking, for one. And the ability to drop either an A-bomb or conventional munitions anywhere, for another. Which means the B-2 would have been obsolete in the 1970s. So why build them? Doesn't add up. Unless there's some Achilles heel, such that they're useful UNLESS their operating principle is unknown. External power source that can be taken out too easily, maybe?)

My problem is that I've lived with this diagram since I was a teenager, and I still go round in circles on it. I suspect that a lot of that text (particularly about the VLF waves) is Deyo's own private interpolation based on researching Tesla and thinking there was a connection - and not necessarily from the same source as the rest of the stuff. He gives an air of being all-knowing, yet seems to be groping in the dark with fragments just as much as anyone else. That attitude of his annoys me. I wish he'd just come out and say 'this is what I know, and this is what I suspect, and the two are not the same.'

I've also seen a LOT of purported 'UFO diagrams' which like to have that three-pod layout, etc. Before Close Encounters, that's what all UFOs 'had' to look like. It's all very Adamski, though this admittedly is a much more streamlined, jet-age look. But it sort of feels to me more like a somewhat fanciful reverse engineering of what an ion-powered saucer craft MIGHT look like given the known tech of the day (1960s-1970s) and some speculative stuff.

Or maybe it's for real, and it's a very sketchy details-lite 'sales brochure' type of photo.

I am curious about these plasmoids. Was this chamber an evacuated vessel? This looks similar to the plasma diode we discussed elsewhere. Was this the tunnel diode and seeded with cesium? This is the heart of the system but what created the high voltage for the plasma diode? Was this where Dr. Brown's electrokinetic generator was used? :)


Your guess is as good as mine. I presume the idea is to use the plasmoid as a sort of supercapacitor in its own right, pump it up with electrons, then use the turbine to keep it charged. Maybe a flame jet generator or an RTG as internal power source to keep it topped up? A lot of thought seems to have gone into not so much how to make it *fly*, but how to make it fly *efficiently*. Which suggests to me that if real, this is a second or third generation take on an already well-proven concept.

And that's where I boggle. If you have a super vehicle like this, then bury it in secrecy - it just seems such a waste. You tie your hands in so many ways. You can't ever show yourself. You can't use mainstream contractors. You can't sell it, or bid for cargo contracts. You can't even engage in dogfights with an aggressor nation that would reveal you to have this capability. You have to sneak, and lurk, and run away. Use it as a last-ditch 'doomsday weapon', maybe. But that doesn't put oil in your gas tank. An elite cadre of super-warriors? They'd get mighty lonely and mighty bored living in their mineshaft or their moonbase.

A replacement for the U2 - maybe.

And yet. It matches Brown's 1958 sketches, at least in essence. I can't put my common-sense hat and my gee-whiz conspiracy hat on together.

Okay, conspiracy hat now on. We stopped officially going to the moon with chemical rockets in 1972, right? Now, if I were the USAF, and I had developed an 'independent' next-generation spaceflight capability which was not quite working before the start of Apollo, but by the end of Apollo had proven itself as an exoatmospheric vehicle... what might I do? Well, for one, I would lose all interest in conventional manned spaceflight. Because it would be obsolete for military purposes. And I'd not really want to keep drawing attention to deep space. I'd keep the low-orbit stuff going, but for exploring the moon and the rest of the planets - I'd use my fancy ships, and I'd keep the civilian space program further and further out of the loop.

See, but be careful there. I'm painting what I think is a plausible scenario, but I'm a sci-fi fan - I do this sort of thing in my sleep, for *fun*. I *love* looking for shadows to hide alternate histories in, because gee-whiz toys are cool. Doesn't mean they really exist or that the USAF *has* that capacity. I just really, really want these things to exist. Maybe too much.

But it would sure explain why the moon, after being The Most Important Thing Ever, suddenly stopped being interesting just as fast after 1972.

It *wouldn't*, however, explain why we continue to have a) the USAF and NRO launching lots of classified satellites on good old chemical rockets - if they have a fancy ship, you'd expect the number of classified payloads to drop. b) why various chemical spaceplane projects keep popping up and getting cancelled - they might be cover for black military projects, but if you have an electric ship, spaceplane research is obsolete just like rockets are, c) why we keep sending probes to Mars - it's only the moon we seem to have got bored with. If I could go faster than C, Mars would be my first stop, and I'd want all the civilian probes out of my way. d) Why UFO reports have been around before 1958. Unless they're time visits from USAF personnel circa 1960-now.

I would expect a deployed craft of this nature to leave an unusual and rather distinctive hole in the US military/space lineup. I would expect there to be a whole range of fairly obvious missions that should be happening, but apparently aren't. Do we in fact see that in the publically visible record, or not? I see holes, yes, but (common sense hat back on) I'm not sure I see the *right* holes.

Conspiracy hat again: If I were the USAF or other military unit and I did have a perfectly mundane but secret ship like this - here's one explanation why I might not reveal it. Massive public and scientific outrage and backlash when they find out that NASA and the commercial space industry has been essentially a fraud. Originally, it might have been a legitimate black project like any other, but then maybe a decision was made to bury it 'just in case', say in he 1960s. A backup plan. Come the 1970s, and in the changed public climate, growing disillusionment with government, detente with the USSR, Nixon flamed out, hardliners dropped to the side and furious at what they see as an imminent wave of chaos about to sweep the West - maybe a strategic call was made that 'it's best we keep this under wraps for now'. And then, as time went by, to the 80s, they felt that they couldn't reveal it now because the backlash would destroy democracy. So they keep it hidden not because it's useful, but because it's a political hot potato that nobody wants bubbling to the surface on their watch.

Dunno. Everyone's so fond of Area 51, I could see them going public and not a hair turning, all the tech geeks going 'yay'. But maybe this is why Morgan approached Paul. Maybe it's a 'controlled release' strategy to sweep out some of those closets and test the waters before they come clean.

Conspiracy hat off. :)
It's a big ball of wibbly-wobbly timey-wimey stuff.
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Re: WIRED on "The AntiGravity Underground"

Postby twigsnapper » Sun Jul 20, 2008 12:22 pm

Nate,

Back to "bubbles coming to the surface", If you see that happening then surely the idea of something solid being down there, generating the bubbles, can't seem that far out.

Now that Paul has his book sort of rounded up I imagine these discussions will not throw him for a loop. Perhaps you have read enough of the threads to note where Elizabeth at one time brought some information up to the forum and I actually asked her to back away from it. Some of the things that you have lightly touched on now might have popped to the surface then. I think that we both then considered some information a " bottomless swamp" and it was wiser to avoid.

Noting how you and your companions here have developed a rather sharp sense for this trail I am beginning to think that this might be the time for a few more bubbles. Controlled release of information? Perhaps.

Linda, you might tell the forum someday how your Dad managed to swim so far underwater and the method that he used. Same situation here.

Paul, you are welcomed to join in if you wish in these discussions or you can ignor this discussion. It can all be relegated to an area of the forum you might all call.... lets see.... whats a good name for this? ...... maybe.... another look at the swamp?

In any case, most of this information deals with situations after Dr. Browns death so you are basically off the hook here Paul, if you want to be. You don't have to really look at this information if you don't want to. This as we all know is a continuing saga and probably will get harder and harder to prove out. Your choice Paul. Its alot of work.

First couple of bubbles, Drawn from another thread. There are direct connections between the "electrohydrodynamic pineapple bomb", a genius named "Mike", his partner... more than a genius ... named "Lavas", The Cabazon Indians, the NRO, The CIA , oh lets see a whole slew of situations that have been hinted about but never actually brought to the surface and yes.... it is slowly becoming time. twigsnapper
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Re: WIRED on "The AntiGravity Underground"

Postby Trickfox » Sun Jul 20, 2008 7:03 pm

Interesting point Mr Twigsnapper. If it is time for the world to know about those "geniuses' as you call them, then I thank you for the tip of your hat. The trickfox is indeed Raymond Lavas mentioned in those publications, however, now this genius has nothing to show the world from all those past efforts. Nothing but trouble and skulldugerry.

Oh yes...I can make a real dangerous bomb the size of a pineappple. Nothing about this technology would be useful in generating any kind of energy. All it can do is make a very big explosion. Othersise, none of the technologies are of any use in generating energy or being creative.(eccept the "cookie cooler" of course) . The truth is that I'm a passifist so I have no interest getting involved in the arms business. The only project will work on now is a communications project

All is not lost however, because I have a new mystery to solve. Now I am very happpy because I have a direction. It has all been leading up to this here and now. I may hurt all over my body right now but I'm extatic with the math issues I'm dealing with. I willl give more details when I am back. Arms are starting to hurt.

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Re: WIRED on "The AntiGravity Underground"

Postby htmagic » Sun Jul 20, 2008 10:17 pm

Mr. Trickfox, rest a little and we'll send healing energies your way.

As for the pineapple bomb, that appears to be after Dr. Brown's time but probably used his basic theories:

http://www.newsmakingnews.com/tgokc.htm wrote:TED GUNDERSON AND MICHAEL RICONOCIUTO AND THE "PINEAPPLE BOMB" THAT ALLEGEDLY TOOK DOWN OKLAHOMA CITY'S MURRAH BUILDING.

Source: http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a3645bc4d2d49.htm

OKC- New Theory with Old Facts

Media Bypass
Pat Shannan © 1998

Excerpt:

....We are talking about the "pineapple bomb" which had been brought to our attention by Ted Gunderson months before we began shooting the video in mid-August of 1995.

While in Las Vegas filming Gunder-son, we got more details about this super bomb from a former CIA operative who understood how it worked and knew where it had been used in the past. He had only high praises for its inventor, Michael Riconosciuto, and lamented the fact that Michael had been "railroaded into prison to shut him up," and referring to the former child prodigy as "by far, the smartest man I ever met."

Michael Riconosciuto had literally grown up in the CIA. His father was an operative in the 1950s and '60s. Michael was recruited for duty before he entered college at Cal Poly at age 17 and remained with "the company" for 25 years. Ted Gunderson had worked with him in the solving of no fewer than five murder cases during the 1980s. Much of Michael's research efforts since the mid-1970s had been spent on developing a super bomb. Immediately upon seeing the results of the Murrah explosion on television, he called his old friend Ted Gunderson in Las Vegas and said, "That was not ANFO. That was our bomb!"

The "Barometric Bomb"

According to Riconscuito, the type bomb detonated was an Electro-Hydro-dynamic Gaseous Fuel Device, otherwise known in the inner circles as a Barometric Bomb. It has been classified as Top Secret due to the ease with which the bomb can be created. A piece to fit the confusion puzzle at Murrah might be found in the fact that the explosive is ammonium nitrate, which is detonated approximately 10 seconds later in a secondary blast.

The complete assembly resembles a propane tank with a zig-zag shaped wedge surrounding the outside diameter of the tank. When the primary initial blast takes place, the top of the tank flies upwards and the bottom of the tank opens up into a flower petal shape. Immediately, the ammonium nitrate mixes with the shattered micro-encapsulated aluminum silicate to create an even more devastating explosion fuel cloud. This cloud is then energized with a high-potential Electrostatic Field re-sulting in the creation of millions of microfronts. The cold cloud is then detonated a second time with another PETN charge, which was previously cushioned from the first blast due to a shock-absorbing cavity. This time the cold cloud ignites -- creating a shock wave surpassing the traditional effects of TNT. The most astounding effect of this type of detonation is the immediate atmospheric overpressure, which has a tendency to blow out the windows of any structure within the vicinity of the blast.


(There were many survivors inside the Murrah Building who first felt a slight rumble, alerting some to take cover. The Water Board tape recording, made directly across the street from the explosions and replayed on our documentary video [and during the McVeigh trial], depicts a definite "pop" some five seconds prior to the eruption.)

After the Las Vegas visit, I decided that the video of the Murrah Building mystery could not be complete without an interview with Michael Riconosciuto. Ted Gunderson agreed and set up the appointment. I met him at the Atlanta airport in September of '95, and we drove together to the federal lockup in South Carolina where Riconosciuto was being held on a 30-year sentence for drug-possession -- a charge which he, too, complains of being a phony one created only to remove him from circulation.

Meanwhile, Partin and Gunderson were in the midst of a talk-show feud. Partin resented the intrusion into his bailiwick by a neophyte touting some unknown super weapon, while Gun-derson, admittedly operating on limited and second-hand information, was convinced his sources were legitimate and that the CIA certainly could be harboring a secret weapon about which even the top brass of the USAF would not be aware. They reached a stalemate when Partin refused to go on the air anymore with Gunderson.

Could Both Have Been Correct?

I was dumbfounded as everyone else. After talking with a dozen or more highly experienced munitions and detonation personnel -- from farmers who had blown away stumps to Navy Seals who had sunken ships -- I knew that a simple ANFO bomb had not wreaked this kind of havoc. General Partin's facts in evidence served to confirm what had been only theories of many others such as this writer who barely passed high school chemistry. But even those who flunked Physics and Logic could understand the Partin report. Apparently this group did not include the some 60 congressman and senators to whom Partin hand-delivered his eight-page letter on Capitol Hill. Only one had the courtesy to respond, said "It's too deep for me," and passed it on the FBI.

What if both Partin and Gunderson were right? How would it mesh? During our prison interview, I asked Michael Riconosciuto: Could there have been four of the super bombs placed at the strategic third-floor columns pointed out by General Partin?

"No way!" Michael responded un-hesitatingly. "I was surprised there was so little damage as it was." His experience had taught him that a simultaneous detonation of four of the Barometric Bombs would have made downtown Oklahoma City look like a post-war Hiroshima and Nagasaki. He admitted on camera that the CIA had used one in Beirut in 1984.

"Okay," I said. "Then let's say a single super bomb was on the third floor in between the front column damage and the center column damage pointed out by General Partin. How do you account for the numerous columns left standing, some even between the bomb [wherever you place it] and the collapsed columns?"

His reply was sincere but failed to convince me. "That's indicative of our bomb. It skips around and passes over. It also can be omnidirectional or set low enough to encompass only a 15 degree pattern." In fact, we believed this revelation to be so confusing that to use it in the documentary would serve more to dilute than enhance his theory. We left it in the can.

.............

Gunderson and Partin: Both Were Right!

Michael Riconosciuto was right about the super bomb but wrong about its placement. It was not in the building but in the truck. With its direction reduced to 15 degrees and aimed directly out the right hand side of the truck toward the Murrah Building, we have the answer to why several witnesses saw what they described as "a rocket being launched upwards through the Murrah Building " (African witnesses described the same scene in August of 1998).

TO READ THE ENTIRE ARTICLE AND POSTS IN RESPONSE TO THIS ARTICLE, CLICK: http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a3645bc4d2d49.htm

Mr. Twigsnapper,

I had to wait all day before I posted that as I was involved in other things. As I understand it, a primary charge ruptures the vessel and disperses the fuel mixture. An electrostatic charge then energizes the cloud. This is like static and separates the particles and blows them farther apart from each other, increasing the air/fuel mixture. The secondary ignites the cloud and KABOOM, Jericho comes tumbling down... Or whatever else you wish to blow up.

This just proves it's an inside job like 911. The thermate used in the Twin Towers and the pools of molten steel days after the towers came down proved it wasn't jet fuel. And the lack of pieces for the Pentagon and the missing tapes show another reason for inside jobs. Could be a pineapple bomb inside the Global Hawk they painted up to look like an airliner.

MagicBill
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Re: WIRED on "The AntiGravity Underground"

Postby twigsnapper » Sun Jul 20, 2008 11:09 pm

No Bill, you have jumped way beyond. Nothing here proves anything. And this is how real information gets lost in the shuffle. So many imagined facts are thrown against the wall and its so much fun to watch the process that the things you actually need to see remain there untouched. Back up a bit.

The disinformation experts in this type of thing don't have to come up with anything creative really. All they need to do is get the ball rolling just a bit by an aside comment and overjealous readers take it from there. Please back up just a bit because you are doing yourself a disservice here.

Don't be afraid to throw out some of that bathwater. The baby will stay. twigsnapper
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