PROJECT: EKGen

For a discussion of the science of Townsend Brown, his experiments and his ideas.

Re: PROJECT: EKGen

Postby greggvizza » Fri Aug 01, 2008 2:56 am

Mikado14 wrote:I would develop my own device using Paschen's Law. If not appropriate, there are devices out there that can inductively couple and there are capacitive transducers. These all cost money and when your using bean can lids, well, the budget is low. Therefore, construct something after doing the math with Paschen's formula using the two brass ball method and the dielectric constant for air.


10 MV arcs are scary. I don’t think I would be using the brass ball Paschen method. 200 capacitors in series seems more civilized and less scary, though notably more expensive.

But none of this is anything more than talk; I don’t plan on building a 10MV supply. As for me building a flame-jet generator, I don’t really have a need for one. I think MagicBill is going to build one as a proof of concept, and I would be interested to see his results. Wonder what kind of current a flame-jet generator puts out? I picture a flame-jet generator as being in the electrostatic device genre along with Van De Graaff, etc; high voltage low current, but I could be wrong. I know the price of propane follows the price of oil so a flame-jet would probably be expensive to operate. If it turns out that it generates about the same amount of current as a Van De Graaff then the economics are definitely tilted in favor of Van De Graaff. That is, unless you have a B2 that needs 10MV for the leading edge of the wings and all that wonderful jet exhaust is otherwise just going to waste.

GV
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Re: PROJECT: EKGen - Capacitors

Postby htmagic » Sat Aug 02, 2008 4:44 am

Well folks, more news on the EKGen homefront.

I just won my bid for some high voltage (HV) capacitors for the electrokinetic or flame jet generator.
I won 10 of these 330pF 4kV Soviet Doorknob Capacitors.
Image

Total cost was $25.50 which includes international shipping and handling which isn't too bad. I wish the capacitance was higher but there are hard to come by cheap so you take what you can get! I secured another bean can lid so I now have 4 disk elements (lids). Based on Fig. 4a of US patent 3,022,430 I could get maybe like 3 stages so far if I had the capacitors. By the time the capacitors come in, I hope to have more lids to use all 10 capacitors.

I also need to pick up some 10-24 allthread so I can screw together more standoffs. Right now, I am just pinching the lids between the standoffs. When I get the doorknob caps, I have to electrically connect the doorknob caps to the lids. We will cross that hurdle when we get there.

Stay tuned for more information...

MagicBill
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Re: PROJECT: EKGen

Postby Mikado14 » Sat Aug 02, 2008 10:40 pm

I am throwing out a bone here and not a rendering. Listen carefully.

The Flame Jet Generator is an extension of what was shown to certain Admirals in Hawaii...when was that?...1951?

But it wasn't a Flame Jet Generator but it was STILL EHD.

Mikado
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PROJECT: EKGen - All thread Rod

Postby htmagic » Sun Aug 03, 2008 9:36 pm

I took a trip to Home Depot yesterday and picked up some allthread rod and some fasteners. The original allthread rod and fasteners was 10-24 (No. 10 screw with 24 threads per inch). It turns out that the standoff insulators needed 10-32, a finer thread. Who knew? Anyway, after returning the stuff that wouldn't work, I got some materials that would work. So I picked up a 3 foot long 10-32 allthread rod, some 10-32 screws, nuts, washers, and lock washers. What I don't use will fill up my hardware storage bins downstairs.

The 10-32 rod I got was harder to cut than the screw I cut before. So I used a Dremel tool with an abrasive wheel on it and cut the allthread rod down into 3/4-inch pieces. These pieces can then screw into the insulator and join them together into a column. Here is part of the allthread rod and a small piece of it already cut.

Image

After I cut a few rod pieces, I screwed more standoff insulators together, pinching the disk elements in between the insulators. After eating 2 cans of beans, I got 4 lids so far for the disk elements. These elements make up the stack. So far, the stack looks like this. You can see one of the allthread pieces screwed into the standoff insulators.

Image

I haven't drilled the holes in the middle of the disk elements (tin can lids), nor have I flared them as depicted in the patent mentioned at the top of this thread.

Believe it or not, this stack is very close to being done. The only thing missing is the high voltage (HV) doorknob capacitors. As I mentioned before, I won those on eBay and am expecting them in the mail. The HV doorknob capacitors are connected electrically to the disk elements (lids) and will make up the completed stack. I have 10 doorknob capacitors so I could have 10 stages. I also have 20 standoff insulators and so with 2 supports as shown, that would work out fine. I may just start with a smaller stack and add stages, notating the increase in voltage per stack.

Until I get some HV capacitors, I cannot proceed too far along with this project.

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Re: PROJECT: EKGen

Postby greggvizza » Sun Aug 03, 2008 11:25 pm

htmagic,

How are you going to flair the center of the discs? A press with a die?

GV
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Re: PROJECT: EKGen

Postby Chris Knight » Mon Aug 04, 2008 12:07 am

htmagic,

It looks from your photo that the discs are connected electrically. You may have taken this into consideration already, but they should be separated electrically and connected to each other only through the doorknob capacators.

Best,
Andrew
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(http://www.qualight.com, http://www.qualightenv.com, http://www.qualightscp.com)

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Re: PROJECT: EKGen

Postby greggvizza » Mon Aug 04, 2008 12:20 am

Chris Knight wrote:htmagic,

It looks from your photo that the discs are connected electrically. You may have taken this into consideration already, but they should be separated electrically and connected to each other only through the doorknob capacators.

Best,


I initially thought the same thing, that is, if the standoffs have a continuous hollow core and the all thread of each stage are in close proximity to one another, or worse, continuous.

I am guessing that the standoffs do not have a continuous hollow core.

Lets ask htmagic. Are the standoffs hollow their entire length or are there just short sockets on the ends to accept the mounting stud and then solid ceramic in the center?

GV
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Re: PROJECT: EKGen

Postby Mikado14 » Mon Aug 04, 2008 12:41 am

How about this question...... What the hell good is an insulator that has a mounting hole straight through the center...unless of course your stringing electric fence around the pasture and the nail to the post has to go through the hole.

Hey, what the hell do I know.

Mikado
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Re: PROJECT: EKGen

Postby greggvizza » Mon Aug 04, 2008 1:08 am

Mikado14 wrote:Hey, what the hell do I know.


You do know. That is why they probably have a shallow threaded socket at each end and solid ceramic between.

GV
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Re: PROJECT: EKGen

Postby htmagic » Mon Aug 04, 2008 1:14 am

Folks,

All good questions and I will try to answer. First of all, the insulators are called ceramic standoffs. The hole does not go all the way through the insulator. The insulator is 1.5 inches long and I measured the depth of the threaded inside to be around 3/8-inch. So that is on both ends, leaving about 3/4-inch of insulation between threaded rods.

greggvizza wrote:I am guessing that the standoffs do not have a continuous hollow core.

You guessed correctly.
If the hole was all the way through, I wouldn't have had to cut the rods to 3/4-inch long.
So it isn't just an insulator but a ceramic standoff.

The disks are electrically isolated from one another. I need to join them with the high voltage (HV) doorknob capacitors. So then each disk will be electrically connected to one end of the HV doorknob capacitor. The HV capacitors will be connected end to end as in the patent. And there is one to ground. I will use the same ground as for the high voltage ion source at the flame jet.

Mikado, you are right if the hole was straight through, the long allthread rod would essentially short out the disk assembly.

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Re: PROJECT: EKGen

Postby htmagic » Mon Aug 04, 2008 1:58 am

greggvizza wrote:htmagic,

How are you going to flair the center of the discs? A press with a die?

GV

Gregg,

That's a good question. This is just galvanized sheet steel from tin cans. These were from some green bean cans. The methane from those beans are long gone already! :wink:

Remember this is being done in a home workshop and I have some tools but not fancy stuff like an arbor press, etc. I was going to drill a small hole and slot the hole into maybe 6 pie shaped segments. Picture an asterisk (*) star shaped hole in the middle. Then I can just flare out the segments. It is really quick and dirty and not as fancy as the patent drawing.

I am doing it this way for several reasons:
1. I am only planning on using a propane blowtorch (home version) for the heat source.
2. Dr. Brown says the effect will be enhanced by jagged or serrated edges.
3. The tips that stay in the midst of the flame will probably burn/melt off.
4. This is a proof of concept with a low budget.
5. Tin can lids are cheap and relatively easy to replace.

This is a learning process for us all. I am figuring the flame from the propane torch will not flare out much. I would prefer to take advantage of the luminous portion of the flame as this is where the plasma is. I suspect the holes could be relatively small and they will burn/melt into a better shape. Also leaving the tips in the middle of the flame will ensure connection to the plasma. It will also give me a platform from which to sprinkle on some added chemical material to add ions and enhance the effect.

Take a look at this setup:
Image

And the entire article is here: http://www.sparkbangbuzz.com/flame-amp/flameamp.htm
Now this is basically a vacuum tube without the glass or vacuum. The flame from the alcohol lamp supplies the plasma to make the current flow in one direction as in a diode. That acorn nut in the background is picking up the current from the other lead with the coil in the flame. Mikado is right in that your are rectifying the current. You will get DC out of this circuit. But you were getting DC anyway as Mikado pointed out that you are injecting ions into the stream.

Now I want to make the disk elements openings just big enough to touch the edges of the luminous section of the flame. My main concern is if the insulators are too long. There appears to be no suggestions on spacings. Now there is 1.5 inches between elements. If they were 0.75 inches long, the plasma channels may be smaller and you might get a better effect. I wish I had various sizes of standoffs to test out. Hard to fund on a limited budget...

So the short answer is I hadn't done anything yet. I'm open to suggestions. I was planning on flaring out the hole with a flaring tool normally used on tubing. The tin can lid should bend easy enough. Other than that, I don't know what else to use to flare out the hole. I don't suspect it would be over 1/2-inch in diameter at the widest point anyway.

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Re: PROJECT: EKGen

Postby Mikado14 » Mon Aug 04, 2008 10:46 am

Mr. Magic,

Here is something curious from Mr. Trickfox from a bit ago. I thought you, or others interested in Tesla, would find it interesting.

http://www.ttbrown.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6925#p6925

Amazing what is hidden in these forums. What will our future selves think when rereading what we post? Will we be embarrassed at our remarks or will we look back and say "My, how far I have come". May it be the second.

Mikado
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Re: PROJECT: EKGen

Postby greggvizza » Mon Aug 04, 2008 12:36 pm

If you want to see a cutaway sketch of that craft see the following post:

http://www.ttbrown.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=308&start=15&st=0&sk=t&sd=a

GV
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Re: PROJECT: EKGen - UFO Craft

Postby htmagic » Mon Aug 04, 2008 2:43 pm

Folks,

I have moved the start of this thread on UFO craft over to the thread for Notepad for Random Ideas.
http://www.ttbrown.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=308&p=17111#p17111

MagicBill
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Re: PROJECT: EKGen - UFO Craft

Postby Mikado14 » Mon Aug 04, 2008 5:35 pm

htmagic wrote:Folks,

I have moved the start of this thread on UFO craft over to the thread for Notepad for Random Ideas.
http://www.ttbrown.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=308&p=17111#p17111

MagicBill


I in no way would even think of starting a thread about "UFO's".

I was hoping that someone would see where I was headed...carry on.

Mikado
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