PROJECT: EKGen

For a discussion of the science of Townsend Brown, his experiments and his ideas.

PROJECT: EKGen

Postby htmagic » Wed Jul 30, 2008 1:00 pm

Folks,

This is a new thread or pool where we may discuss Thomas Townsend Brown's Electrokinetic Generator (EKGen), U.S. patent No. 3,022,430 issued on Fe. 20, 1962.

For those that wish to review this patent, you may find a copy of it here:
http://www.high-techmagic.com/TTB/ElectroKGen.pdf

This will also be the spot where I will describe building Dr. Brown's EKGen, construction step details, and the results provided after experimentation.

So jump into the pool and let's learn about this fascinating device.

MagicBill
Last edited by htmagic on Wed Jul 30, 2008 2:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: PROJECT: EKG

Postby Mikado14 » Wed Jul 30, 2008 1:36 pm

Mr. Magic,

I applaud the fact that you are going to construct a device such as the Flame Jet Generator and I for one am not going to dissuade you. You mentioned using a propane torch. The use of a propane torch instead of the exhaust from a Jet engine would be analogous to an exhale versus a gale force wind.

Dr. Brown had this in mind long before the Bahnson Labs as is evidenced with the "Adamski Saucer" rendering drawn by a Mr. Williams.

Good Luck and I hope as with anyone that experiments, it becomes a learning experience.

Mikado
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Re: PROJECT: EKGen

Postby htmagic » Wed Jul 30, 2008 1:44 pm

We are attempting to build a TTB EKGen according to Fig. 4a of U.S. patent No. 3,022,430.

I received my ceramic standoffs that I won from eBay. The dealer was from Pennsylvania and I received my 20 ceramic standoffs for $0.99 and $5.00 shipping and handling. The ceramic standoffs are approximately 0.75 inches wide x about 1.5 inches high. They appear to be unused, new old stock. I got them in 2 days.
Image
Image

We are looking for some high voltage capacitors for the project. Ideally they should be ceramic to withstand the heat. "Doorknob" type capacitors would be ideal.

We were looking for some material to use for the disc elements as depicted in Fig. 4a and 4b of U.S. patent No. 3,022,430. We wanted something cheap for a proof of concept (POC) test. If the POC test works, then refinement to a better display model might be in order. Experimentation costs money and that's why most people don't do it. But if you are going to research the technology, experimentation and duplication of results is a scientific method that cannot be disputed.

Looking around the house, we settled on a disk material that is cheap and replaceable. We used the lids off of a can of green beans. Typically, these "tin cans" are galvanized, which is to mean a layer of zinc was coated over a steel core. I am aware of the risk of zinc fumes but I will not be testing this device in a closed room for long periods of time and will avoid breathing in zinc fumes. Inhalation/ingestion of zinc fumes can be hazardous to one's health. I am aware of the dangers and ask others trying this experiment to:

DO THIS EXPERIMENT AT YOUR OWN RISK.
THERE ARE DANGERS OF HIGH VOLTAGE AND HAZARDOUS MATERIALS.
WE TAKE NO RESPONSIBILITY FOR ACCIDENTS, DAMAGE, OR OTHER INCIDENTS THAT MAY OCCUR!


Using the ceramic standoffs and the tin can lids, we assembled one stage of the EKGen.
Image

A high voltage capacitor will be connected across the two disk elements (lids). The lids do not yet have a hole in them. I figured I would drill a hole in the lid, then slot the center of the hole a bit and peel back the edges to flare out the hole.

Stay tuned for more pictures and progress on this device.

MagicBill
Last edited by htmagic on Wed Jul 30, 2008 2:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: PROJECT: EKGen

Postby htmagic » Wed Jul 30, 2008 2:08 pm

OK,

We already had one visitor to this thread! I was trying to tie my posts back to back...

While Mikdao is right about the propane torch for the flame source, two things are required to make this work - high temperature and ions. The high temperature will be created by the use of a propane torch. The ions will be from the galvanized material used for the disc elements (tin can lids).

Remember, this is a proof of concept test. I am receiving no outside funding on this project. If someone wants to donate a jet engine to the project, we might accept later on down the line! :wink:

In reviewing the drawing for the U.S. patent No. 3,022,430 we saw a similarity to that drawing and one for a Cockcroft-Walton voltage multiplier.
Image

Reviewing the drawings, you note the similarities. In surfing the Internet, I came across websites where people designed a plasma triode, just like a vacuum tube but without the vacuum. The plasma is performing the same function as the vacuum tube would. A plasma diode could be created the same way. Dr. Brown is using the plasma contained between disk elements as a plasma diode. This plasma diode, coupled with the high voltage capacitor builds up a voltage introduced from the flame source. A small ion generator supplies electrons and help create the plasma between disk elements (lids). This device is simple yet elegant in nature and uses no moving parts. Add more stages and one should theoretically generate more voltage.

Our device needs some high voltage capacitors and more lids. Anyone wanting to donate items for this project will be accepted.

"We need more lids, Captain!" :!:
Pass the can of beans, please! :lol:

MagicBill
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Re: PROJECT: EKGen

Postby Mikado14 » Wed Jul 30, 2008 10:44 pm

htmagic wrote:In reviewing the drawing for the U.S. patent No. 3,022,430 we saw a similarity to that drawing and one for a Cockcroft-Walton voltage multiplier.
Image





Since you are head strong on this and you are still insisting that they are similar, have you noticed that in the Voltage Multiplier schematic you have posted which have been in TV sets since the late 60's to early 70's, you are missing an important observation. Take note that the Capacitors are NOT in series. The Capacitors in the Flame Jet Generator ARE in series. The Voltage Multiplier schematic is essentially cascaded Half-Wave Voltage Doubler supplies. Take further note that the Multiplier Schematic you provided shows an AC source being applied.

You don't have to believe me, in fact, I really wish you to proceed. Keep in mind that diodes do not Generate power, my experience has taught me that in this application that you have referenced ( Cockton-Walton), they are rectifiers.

Also note that in the Flame Jet Generator, there is an exciter Supply.

Mikado
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Re: PROJECT: EKGen

Postby htmagic » Thu Jul 31, 2008 12:26 pm

Mikado14 wrote:
htmagic wrote:In reviewing the drawing for the U.S. patent No. 3,022,430 we saw a similarity to that drawing and one for a Cockcroft-Walton voltage multiplier.

Since you are head strong on this and you are still insisting that they are similar, have you noticed that in the Voltage Multiplier schematic you have posted which have been in TV sets since the late 60's to early 70's, you are missing an important observation. Take note that the Capacitors are NOT in series. The Capacitors in the Flame Jet Generator ARE in series. The Voltage Multiplier schematic is essentially cascaded Half-Wave Voltage Doubler supplies. Take further note that the Multiplier Schematic you provided shows an AC source being applied.


Yes, I am aware of all of this. I highlighted the word similarity as it was a comparison. And voltage multipliers will work on DC as well. After the first stage, it is basically a DC output anyway.

Mikado14 wrote:You don't have to believe me, in fact, I really wish you to proceed. Keep in mind that diodes do not Generate power, my experience has taught me that in this application that you have referenced ( Cockton-Walton), they are rectifiers.


You are correct in that diodes do not generate power. All they do is act as a one way valve to electric current. By the way, it is Cockcroft-Walton not Cockton-Walton.
As for diodes and rectifiers, they are the same thing...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diode wrote:At the time of their invention, such devices were known as rectifiers. In 1919, William Henry Eccles coined the term diode from Greek roots; di means "two", and ode (from odos) means "path".


And I am using a thermionic diode with the plasma between the elements.

Mikado14 wrote:Also note that in the Flame Jet Generator, there is an exciter Supply.

Mikado

I am aware of the exciter supply. I plan on using a high voltage (HV) power supply that can put out 3-5 kV using a 9 volt battery. Normally it is used in portable neon supplies. I know it is not much but this is cheap and dirty and a proof of concept (POC). And I have one sitting around. Do you know what voltage values I will get out at the output per stage? Neither do I. I would like to try to do one stage, measure the voltage output, then increasing stages. I have a high voltage probe used for checking voltages for the HV from the flyback transformer for picture tube TVs. We'll see what we get there and go from there.

I got another lid so I have 3 disk elements now. I have a bid on some HV doorknob capacitors on eBay. I think the bidding ends Friday. Once we win some and when they come in we will be ready to do the testing.

MagicBill
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Re: PROJECT: EKGen

Postby Mikado14 » Thu Jul 31, 2008 2:40 pm

htmagic wrote:
Yes, I am aware of all of this. I highlighted the word similarity as it was a comparison. And voltage multipliers will work on DC as well. After the first stage, it is basically a DC output anyway.


To the best of my knowledge, I know of no means that will take DC to DC without converting to AC in between. Look at your schematic, it indicates AC being applied. Oh, and after the "first stage" it is pulsating DC, half-wave rectified and you are obviously not aware that it has an AC component equal to the frequency of the applied AC.

htmagic wrote:You are correct in that diodes do not generate power. All they do is act as a one way valve to electric current. By the way, it is Cockcroft-Walton not Cockton-Walton.
As for diodes and rectifiers, they are the same thing...


Thank You for the grade in my knowledge but it appears I loose it on spelling. I would rather know how the circuit functions than to be able to spell it. As to diodes and rectifiers being the same thing you should familiarize yourself with components and applications. A diode is a component and a rectifier is an application. Diodes can be used in applications that is not rectification.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diode wrote:At the time of their invention, such devices were known as rectifiers. In 1919, William Henry Eccles coined the term diode from Greek roots; di means "two", and ode (from odos) means "path".


Thanks for education. I did not know that "di" meant "two" and "ode" meant "path".......

htmagic wrote:And I am using a thermionic diode with the plasma between the elements.


Where is your complete path? Where is the anode? Sorry, you haven't given me the definition (anode) of that one yet.

htmagic wrote:
Mikado14 wrote:Also note that in the Flame Jet Generator, there is an exciter Supply.

I am aware of the exciter supply. I plan on using a high voltage (HV) power supply that can put out 3-5 kV using a 9 volt battery. Normally it is used in portable neon supplies. I know it is not much but this is cheap and dirty and a proof of concept (POC). And I have one sitting around. Do you know what voltage values I will get out at the output per stage? Off the top of my head no but I do know how to calculate it but the real question is, Do you? Do you know the variables that you will need to know in order to put it in the proper equations? Do you even know the proper equations? Neither do I. That statement implies that I don't know. You have done this a few times before and I am really beginning to take offense at the way you surmise what I know and what I don't know. I would like to try to do one stage, measure the voltage output, then increasing stages. I have a high voltage probe used for checking voltages for the HV from the flyback transformer for picture tube TVs. We'll see what we get there and go from there.


Let's address this, you are aware of the exciter supply and you plan on essentially using a 9 v supply that is multiplied into 3-5Kv. Therefore, if the exhaust of the Jet with the rings is a Voltage Multiplier....forget it.

All I have attempted to do is to help you and you refuse. You seem to believe that if you repeat something enough and/or yell it loud enough it will be true. I am weary of your condescending posts to me in my attempt to help you and your sarcasm and since I am at it, your little quip about Gingko Biloba was uncalled for, my condition and cause for my memory loss has been discussed here and your comment was to me a low blow, in my book, you would make fun of a cripple. Just maybe, mind you, perhaps someone knows a bit more than you but then that would probably not apply in your world. I sincerely hope and pray with every fiber of my being that you DO build it and then you promptly get knocked on your ass. I have been bit by HV on many occassions even when I was being careful....but I learned and you will too. You are the "kid" that needs to be hit and hit hard. If you succeed at some point, the Voltage Potentials you are looking at are DEADLY and there are no HV probes used for TV's that will function. Go ahead, knock yourself out.

Until the next dimension,

Mikado
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Re: PROJECT: EKGen

Postby htmagic » Thu Jul 31, 2008 3:12 pm

Mikado14 wrote:All I have attempted to do is to help you and you refuse. You seem to believe that if you repeat something enough and/or yell it loud enough it will be true. I am weary of your condescending posts to me in my attempt to help you and your sarcasm and since I am at it, your little quip about Gingko Biloba was uncalled for, my condition and cause for my memory loss has been discussed here and your comment was to me a low blow, in my book, you would make fun of a cripple. Just maybe, mind you, perhaps someone knows a bit more than you but then that would probably not apply in your world. I sincerely hope and pray with every fiber of my being that you DO build it and then you promptly get knocked on your ass. I have been bit by HV on many occassions even when I was being careful....but I learned and you will too. You are the "kid" that needs to be hit and hit hard. If you succeed at some point, the Voltage Potentials you are looking at are DEADLY and there are no HV probes used for TV's that will function. Go ahead, knock yourself out.

Until the next dimension,

Mikado

Mikado,

I haven't refused anything. You assume I know about your condition which I do not. The comment on Gingko Biloba was not a quip but a suggestion for help. I'm sorry if you felt offended by it and I apologize. I did not mean anything in a mean spirited way. As for making fun of cripples, once again you assume you know me and you do not. Maybe you are talking from your own experience of making fun of cripples.

As for praying that I get knocked on my ass because of high voltage (HV), I take offense to that. This is certainly mean spirited in nature from you but I am not going to start a flame war. I have been bit by HV before as have you and as you know, it is no fun.

Now I agree at some point voltages will be deadly. But I don't expect that from a proof of concept (POC) device.
Now how did Dr. Brown measure 10 million volts?

MagicBill
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Re: PROJECT: EKGen

Postby greggvizza » Thu Jul 31, 2008 4:22 pm

htmagic wrote:Now how did Dr. Brown measure 10 million volts?


I don’t know how Dr Brown measured 10 million volts but I know how I would do it. Put 200 capacitors in series and take your measurement across the last one.

Another way would be a resistor voltage divider, but this would introduce a small load, whereas the capacitors would not.

Again, not being a high voltage expert, there probably is a much more elegant method than described above. You may need to parachute to find a German high voltage expert.

GV
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Re: PROJECT: EKGen

Postby greggvizza » Thu Jul 31, 2008 4:25 pm

MagicBill,

Are you building this as purely a flame-jet generator to generate high voltage, or are you building it for electrokinetic propulsion?

GV
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Re: PROJECT: EKGen

Postby htmagic » Thu Jul 31, 2008 4:55 pm

greggvizza wrote:MagicBill,

Are you building this as purely a flame-jet generator to generate high voltage, or are you building it for electrokinetic propulsion?

GV

Gregg,

I am building it to generate high voltage. Later on I may try it for electrokinetic propulsion but I wish to take this one step at a time.

Thanks for the tip on the capacitors. I thought about a string of high voltage resistors. That may be cheaper and easier than 200 capacitors.
You may need to parachute to find a German high voltage expert.

I will pass on the parachute jumps! :wink:

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Re: PROJECT: EKGen

Postby greggvizza » Thu Jul 31, 2008 5:04 pm

htmagic wrote:Thanks for the tip on the capacitors. I thought about a string of high voltage resistors. That may be cheaper and easier than 200 capacitors.


200 was for 10 million volts. You could probably get by with 10 if you kept things under 500kV.

GV
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Re: PROJECT: EKGen

Postby Elizabeth Helen Drake » Thu Jul 31, 2008 10:47 pm

I love this discussion! Have nothing worthwhile technically to add to it, but love it still . And I sense the heat of some passion for the work going on here and just want to ask all of you not to aim it toward each other. You know, the Mom of the Forum speaks in the kindest possible way ..... Boys, Boys.

As for the voltage. My mind has gone away on some of the past discussions so someone please help me out here. In Germany before the end of the war there was a gentleman who was working with a generating station ( 20 million volts). He was getting there by using those new fangled things the Germans called jet engines. That gentleman ended up living in Bryn Mawr Pa I think and having connections with the University of Pa. His name escapes me at the moment and I havent the time to look him up. But you guys started it first by mentioning parachutes and germans!

Big help that was, huh? Elizabeth
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Re: PROJECT: EKGen

Postby Mikado14 » Thu Jul 31, 2008 10:53 pm

Gregg,

I would develop my own device using Paschen's Law. If not appropriate, there are devices out there that can inductively couple and there are capacitive transducers. These all cost money and when your using bean can lids, well, the budget is low. Therefore, construct something after doing the math with Paschen's formula using the two brass ball method and the dielectric constant for air.

Without a high cfm through the rings, I seriously doubt that the output Voltage will be that High and a standard 50Kv probe will suffice.

So Gregg, you gonna build one?...if so, I might be able to tell you how to build a high cfm quasi jet engine that burns propane, guaranteed to use up a 20 lb cylinder before you could finish eating a steak dinner. In fact, we have one here where I work for pulling down the propane tanks from Schwan food trucks.

Mikado
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Re: PROJECT: EKGen

Postby Mikado14 » Thu Jul 31, 2008 11:13 pm

Elizabeth Helen Drake wrote:I love this discussion! Have nothing worthwhile technically to add to it, but love it still . And I sense the heat of some passion for the work going on here and just want to ask all of you not to aim it toward each other. You know, the Mom of the Forum speaks in the kindest possible way ..... Boys, Boys.

As for the voltage. My mind has gone away on some of the past discussions so someone please help me out here. In Germany before the end of the war there was a gentleman who was working with a generating station ( 20 million volts). He was getting there by using those new fangled things the Germans called jet engines. That gentleman ended up living in Bryn Mawr Pa I think and having connections with the University of Pa. His name escapes me at the moment and I havent the time to look him up. But you guys started it first by mentioning parachutes and germans!

Big help that was, huh? Elizabeth


I might have it in my ledger somewhere.

Mikado
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