PROJECT: EKGen

For a discussion of the science of Townsend Brown, his experiments and his ideas.

Re: PROJECT: EKGen

Postby htmagic » Mon Aug 04, 2008 5:56 pm

Mikado,

i did read the article and saw this...
In the center of this radially oriented array, all cast within a single chunk of dielectric, is "the central column". Brad stated that he did not know what was inside it, but that it contained Mercury vapor a "noble gas". He referred to it as the "Amplifier Section". But this was about all he claimed he knew concerning this component. (Or so he said at the time).


Now I think they meant mercury vapor and a noble gas. Mercury can't be a noble gas. But argon is and has been used with a drop or two of mercury for years by neon benders. The Nazi Bell does sound very similar to this and we know that Tesla was the forerunner for Dr. Brown.

I was especially curious of this...
One witness who claimed his mother had worked on the project said that the Mercury ions in the amplifier section had to be in resonance with the dielectric material in the capacitor section for it to work properly. He never told me "why" though. He did say that was why the dielctric material was critical to the ...'s operation. I have never shared what that material is with ...because of the manner in which he has treated me over the years. But it isn't plastic!

I think it may have been ceramic and this is where Dr. Brown and his petrovoltaics and sand he was collecting came in...

Mikado, is this what you were talking about? Or the segmented capacitor plates?

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Re: PROJECT: EKGen

Postby Mikado14 » Mon Aug 04, 2008 7:56 pm

htmagic wrote:Mikado, is this what you were talking about? Or the segmented capacitor plates?

MagicBill


At this point, no, that is not what I was talking about for it was what wasn't there and I thought that you might have saw it.

Don't be distracted, continue with what you are doing and ignore the man behind the curtain.

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Re: PROJECT: EKGen

Postby htmagic » Tue Aug 05, 2008 1:46 am

Mikado14 wrote:Don't be distracted, continue with what you are doing and ignore the man behind the curtain.

Mikado

Mikado,

Very good. If you wish to elaborate on what you posted earlier, we would be interested in what you were hinting at.

I opened a can of corn tonight and I managed to get another lid. I couldn't use the bottom lid as it was rolled from the can and the can opener couldn't cut it. :(

So I decided to try to drill a hole and flare the edges of the hole for the blowtorch flame. I quickly figured out that the flaring tool would not work as the can lid is nearly 3 inches in diameter and far larger than the jaws of the tubing flaring tool.
Image

So I drilled a hole in the middle and used the round end of a ball peen hammer to flare out the hole. Crude but it might work. Right now the flare diameter is under 1-inch (around 7/8-inch). I would prefer it to be larger than that and may work with it.

If anyone else has any ideas, we would be open to them...

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Re: PROJECT: EKGen

Postby Mikado14 » Tue Aug 05, 2008 10:51 am

You better make sure that the cones start small and go successivly larger otherwise it will not work, when you figure it out I will tell you why........and that tool will not do what you want, start looking through some tool catalogs or go to your friendly machine shop, if you know one. If not go to a plumbing supply store get different size pipe to use as a crude die and purchase a taper punch, do you have a hammer and know how to use it?
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Re: PROJECT: EKGen

Postby htmagic » Tue Aug 05, 2008 11:06 am

Mikado14 wrote:You better make sure that the cones start small and go successivly larger otherwise it will not work, when you figure it out I will tell you why........

Mikado,

Why is this? Have you been down this road already? Why am I doing these experiments? This may be something to investigate. Don't you want the edges of the elements near the boundary of the luminous flame? And if I made the holes all the same size and did not increase the size, you are saying that it won't work and I'd like to know why. Also, do we need solid elements such as depicted in the patent or would screens do just as good a job of collecting charges? Also, wouldn't it help the exhaust to "breathe" better with lower flow restrictions?

Mikado14 wrote:... and that tool will not do what you want, start looking through some tool catalogs or go to your friendly machine shop, if you know one. If not go to a plumbing supply store get different size pipe to use as a crude die and purchase a taper punch, do you have a hammer and know how to use it?

I will take that into consideration. As I said before, this is a learning process for us all. But I will not post any pictures of me and my hammer! LOL!

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Re: PROJECT: EKGen

Postby Linda Brown » Tue Aug 05, 2008 1:24 pm

I love you guys.

As Andrew Bolland will attest my husband is a very good mechanic. And what he can't fix he can generally make. (Thats what living on an Island for fifteen years will do for you.) So I had to laugh at this comment

"If not go to a plumbing supply store get different size pipe to use as a crude die and purchase a taper punch, do you have a hammer and know how to use it?"

Because thats exactly what he said to do. Of course I didn't really catch on that much but I have a feeling that you guys are all cut out of the same cloth and that is REALLY what makes America special.

Be careful here folks but just build the damn thing. The math can catch up later. right Trickfox? Linda
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Re: PROJECT: EKGen

Postby htmagic » Mon Aug 18, 2008 6:47 pm

The last post I made I was still waiting for my high voltage capacitors. They were Soviet made doorknob capacitors and designed to handle high voltage. I also liked the fact that they are ceramic and could probably tolerate some heat from the blowtorch although they won't be directly in the air stream of the torch.

I was musing along what to use to flare the holes as indicated on the patent. I visited Home Depot and then Harbor Freight Tools and searched for taper punches which were too small to do any good. I finally settled on a 25 Piece Doming Block and Punch Set from Harbor Freight Tools.

Image

I also picked up a hand punch as I think I will punch the holes in the disk elements (tin can lids) so I may attach pop rivets to the lids. Rather than pinch the lids between the ceramic standoffs, I will support the lids with brass strips and fasten them to the lids with pop rivets. This will make a more stable assembly and the brass strips will also be the conductors for the high voltage capacitors.

I will try to do some more work and take pictures of the components.

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PROJECT: EKGen - Project Update

Postby htmagic » Tue Aug 19, 2008 7:05 pm

Folks,

As I mentioned before, I picked up a hand punch to help in assembly of the disk elements (tin can lids). The hand punch is designed for sheet metal and can punch 1/8'' up to 11 gauge, 3/16'' up to 14 gauge, and 7/16'' up to 20 gauge.
Image

I punched the lids last night in two places, one on each side. I plan on attaching a brass strip to the lid with pop rivets and not only will that support the lids on each side, but will also provide electrical connection to the high voltage doorknob capacitors. This will provide a more secure mounting for the disk elements rather than pinching the elements between the ceramic standoffs. I will try to get some more pictures taken and uploaded of the disk elements.

I have not yet made the center holes for the disk elements. Since I will be using a blowtorch, I may mount the blowtorch first and determine the width of the blowtorch flame. I suspect it will not flare very much.

Based upon Mikado's suggestions, I should flare out the holes starting from narrow at the bottom to wide at the top. I plan on mounting the device so the flame will rise, taking along the heat with it. I do not know how much increase in flare I should make between elements. Dr. Brown indicates in his patent that the conically shaped portions should 'have orifices which are progressively larger as they are positioned more remotely from the nozzle.' Mr. Twigsnapper suggests in another post that there may be subtle differences that may make a difference. This may be true. Only time will tell...

In the meantime, I’m going to place the edge of the flare near the edge of the flame, as per the image in this post:
http://www.ttbrown.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=568&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=15#p17098

If you look at the image, you’ll see an acorn nut just outside the flame boundary. The cathode is the glowing wire in the image and the acorn nut is the anode outside the flame. This is analogous to the needle cathode (#82 in Fig. 4a. of patent 3,022,430) and the disk elements anodes (#84 & #85 in Fig. 4a. of patent 3,022,430).

I will try to upload more pictures and material as work progresses on this project.

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Re: PROJECT: EKGen

Postby Mikado14 » Tue Aug 19, 2008 10:39 pm

Be careful of Coanda.

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PROJECT: EKGen - Project Update 08/28/2008

Postby htmagic » Thu Aug 28, 2008 1:44 pm

Folks,

I know it has been awhile since my last update. Some forward motion was made on the EKGen.
I won't bore you how I ran to the hobby store to pick up brass strips and brass tubing for the high voltage capacitors.
I also won't bore you how I had to take the photos, download them to my computer, pick the right ones to use and upload them to my server. Plus, the forum and some of the members have been keeping me busy! :mrgreen:

From a handful of parts like this,

Image

The parts shown above were for one stage of the EKGen. I assembled the high voltage (HV) doorknob capacitors according to Fig. 4a of patent # 3022430. The HV capacitor rail now looks like this:

Image

Seven stages are shown. The tabs on the left side will be used to attach the disk elements (tin can lids) of the EKGen. I plan on using small stainless 4-40 machine screws i had available. That way I may be able to swap out disk elements to make modifications in the hole sizing, flaring, etc. The tabs are also a better way to secure the disk elements rather than pinch them together by using the insulators as in this earlier photo.

Image

In this early photo showing the stacking of the disk elements (tin can lids), you can see one hole flared out with a ball pein hammer. This is prior to purchasing the doming kit. Before I flare the holes for the disk elements as indicated on Fig. 4b or 4c of US pat # 3022430, I may wish to mount the HV capacitor rail and the disk element support rail (the other group of insulators).

I will assemble the supports and add the propane nozzle near the bottom of the disk stack. The flame will go up through the center of the lids through the holes which I have to make in the disk elements (lids). The blowtorch nozzle must be supported and that is what I will work on next.

As Mikado noted, when I drill and flare the holes for the disk elements, I must be careful of Coanda forces. This is where fluid flow will flow along curved surfaces like this:

Image

Dr. Brown eliminated Coanda forces by placing the edge of the flare of one disk element almost into the throat of the next disk element as shown in Fig. 4a of his patent. My ceramic standoffs are 1.5 inches long and I do not know if I can flare it as deep as Dr. Brown depicted. I am limited by the length of the ceramic standoff. It would have been nicer to have a shorter standoff but that is what was cheap and available at the time. Hopefully it will not make much of a difference and that is why I made the disk elements removable. I may also use a screen for the last element as depicted on Fig. 3 of his patent. This would be later on down the line after I build the proof of concept (POC) model.

Well, back to work. I have more to do on the EKGen. With the weekend coming up, I hope I can make some more forward progress on the device. I will take more pictures and show more progress at a later time.

May the FORCE be with you and have a magical day!

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Re: PROJECT: EKGen

Postby Hector » Wed Sep 03, 2008 11:07 am

If I understand it correctly the flame jet generator that TTBrown proposed strips the hot fluid of electrons, which then raises the potential of the plates it is traveling through. However, there is a problem with this idea; the stripping of electrons will create a potential difference between the jet mass and the generator. When the jet exhaust escapes through the nozzle it will do a u-turn and hit the flame jet nozzle. This is not theory it’s fact, this is why Xenon Ion Propulsion Systems (XIPS) and all other ion propulsion systems have free electron emitters at the end of the nozzle, to minimize and or eliminate this problem.
In contract a magneto-hydrodynamic generator does not suffer from this problem, because the fluid stays electrically neutral since only the kinetic energy of the fluid is converted into power.

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Re: PROJECT: EKGen

Postby htmagic » Wed Sep 03, 2008 2:30 pm

Hector wrote:If I understand it correctly the flame jet generator that TTBrown proposed strips the hot fluid of electrons, which then raises the potential of the plates it is traveling through. However, there is a problem with this idea; the stripping of electrons will create a potential difference between the jet mass and the generator. When the jet exhaust escapes through the nozzle it will do a u-turn and hit the flame jet nozzle. This is not theory it’s fact, this is why Xenon Ion Propulsion Systems (XIPS) and all other ion propulsion systems have free electron emitters at the end of the nozzle, to minimize and or eliminate this problem.
In contract a magneto-hydrodynamic generator does not suffer from this problem, because the fluid stays electrically neutral since only the kinetic energy of the fluid is converted into power.

Hector

Hector,

I believe you are incorrect. If you go to the start of this thread and read the patent, please study it carefully, paying particular attention to Fig. 4a. I believe you'll see the free electron emitter at the nozzle. Dr. Brown was apparently aware of this and designed for it in his patent.

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Re: PROJECT: EKGen

Postby Hector » Wed Sep 03, 2008 3:14 pm

I pulled the patent, looked at the patent and there is no free electron emitter to neutralize the free ions coming out of the exhaust. If you look at Fig. 2 on the patent you can clearly see that the stream shown on no.26 has a negative potential, likewise no.21 on the same drawing shows there is a positive potential (assuming we are using the electron flow model) so therefore unlike what is shown in Fig. 2, the negatively change stream will not travel away from the positively charged body. The electrostatic attraction between them will cause the negatively charged stream to flow back towards the positively charged body. This is why in ion propulsion systems they have a free electron emitter at the end of the exhaust, to neutralize the free charge on the ions and turn them back into a neutral gas. Likewise the device in Fig. 4 will suffer from the same problem.

In addition, there is no need to make more than a 1-3 plate device to prove the principal works and do basic quantification of the concept. Just attach one or two capacitors in series and check to see if there is any change in potential above the input high voltage potential. I would suggest keeping the input voltage low like 1Kv- 5Kv at first. You have to familiarize yourself with the system and its nature before you can begin to scale it up.
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Re: PROJECT: EKGen

Postby Mikado14 » Tue Sep 16, 2008 2:37 am

Mr. Magic,

Don't give up on your Flame Jet Generator but you really need to increase the flow. Here is an idea for you. Go to the hardware store and see if they have brush burners. The have one hell of an orifice and will consume a good deal of propane but they can be venturied down and a creative guy like you will figure a way to compress it and get the gases moving fast.

I hope that helps you get started better than what you would have had with a Bernzomatic.

Good luck.

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