brown's device in anomalous environments and its performance

For a discussion of the science of Townsend Brown, his experiments and his ideas.

brown's device in anomalous environments and its performance

Postby timniver2003 » Mon Jun 13, 2005 5:32 pm

i am writing to ask if anyone knows of any experiments done regarding the biefeld--brown effect in anomalous (i.e. non--atmospheric) environments-- i seem to recall having read somewhere that brown at one point discovered the effect produced by his devices in model form would work as well in vacuum as in a viscous liquid (some sort of oil bath)
and i am wondering consequently if anyone has attempted to verify these findings or not. any help here? thanx. :D
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Vacuum test

Postby Hec » Wed Jul 13, 2005 3:24 am

Yes, I’ve done both oil and vacuum tests. The problem with Mineral oil or any other dielectric medium is that it flows, and in doing so, it is a source of conventional propulsion and not what I call an Electric Field Propulsion Effect.

The simple solution is encapsulation of the device so that no momentum can't be imparted to the device as a result of a mass ejection mechanism. However you will quickly find that there are serious problems in doing this and getting an effect.

As for vacuum, well that’s a whole different animal and requires special care. In my last test I was generating ~500 Millinewtons of force in vacuum without the benefit of any mass ejection mechanism.


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what do you mean Hec?

Postby Mark Culpepper » Sat Feb 25, 2006 9:16 pm

Hec ... I have just been reading over the different posts in this whole forum and .... OK ... I am just a non technical type ... and not a science whiz at that ... so ... could you explain in common language what it is that you just said regarding Browns work and yours .... I realize now that your message is from last year but if you are still out there. Can you help me? I am trying to wrap my brain around this technology. Not Easy.
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Re: brown's device in anomalous environments and its performance

Postby htmagic » Wed Aug 27, 2008 2:42 pm

Mark,

I just read your post because I was going to post something of interest I noticed when I was reading an article off the Internet. I think this material fits here well and I hope to answer your question as well.

When Hector talks about "mass ejection mechanism", I believe he is talking about an ionic breeze or the coronal wind as generated by a "lifter" type device. But the "Biefeld Brown" (BB) effect is different as has been discussed before.

Now I was going over material that others have posted. In fact, when Paul talks about Foo Fighters in his book, he borrowed the picture and some information on this page. But this is what jumped out at me today.
http://greyfalcon.us/restored/PROJECT%20UFO.htm wrote:The V2 rockets had a thrust of 55,000 pounds, attained a velocity of 6400 feet per second, and could soar to an altitude of sixty-eight miles. What this meant, in effect, is that the Germans had taken designs shamefully neglected by the US government and used them as the basis for a radical, highly advanced, supersonic technology. They had also learned through Goddard of the necessity for gyroscopic control and thus potential control of the boundary layer. What is the boundary layer?

While being 4000 or 5000 times less viscous than oil, air is still viscous. Because of this, the air sweeping in on the solid body of an aircraft forms imperceptible stratifications of resistance and consequently decreases the speed of the body in flight. These layers of air are therefore known as the boundary layer and the boundary layer increases its resistance in direct proportion to the increasing speed of the flying object, thus imposing severe limitations on its speed and manoeuvrability. Though the boundary layer affects all forms of flight, the major problem regarding ultra-high-speed flight is to somehow move this negative air as far to the rear of the aircraft as possible, thus minimizing the expenditure of energy required to propel the aircraft through the sky. Moreover, it is possible that a revolutionary type of aircraft could by not only completely removing the boundary layer, but by somehow rerouting it and utilizing it as an added propulsive force fly through the skies using little other than the expelled air itself. Should this be accomplished, we would have an aircraft capable of remarkable speeds while using only the bare minimum of conventional fuel. The Germans were working on all aspects of the boundary layer even before the beginning of the Great War of 1914 - 1918.

In studying Thomas Townsend Brown's patent for the electrokinetic generator, US patent 3022430, Fig. 2 shows a negative ion cloud behind the exhaust of the mobile vehicle that Dr. Brown describes in his patent. Now I see that the patent was granted in 1962 but it was filed in 1957, right at the fringe of "the missing years". And Fig. 2 of Dr. Brown's patent # 3022430 is very similar to Fig. 8 of Dr. Brown's earlier patent of electrokinetic apparatus, US patent # 2949550, issued 1960 and filed in 1957 (July 3, 1957). So we see patents # 2949550 & 3022430 were filed on the same day. Now The BB effect is reported to be as early as 1930, prior to WWII.

So I'd bet a pasta dinner that Dr. Brown may have been aware of the German research on the boundary layer and was searching for Germans working along these lines. Now if the B2 bomber uses this technology, we can trace back the roots to the work done by the Germans and Dr. Brown.

Now Mark, I hope this answers your question as well. If you want to learn more about the BB effect, Wikipedia is a good site to start or possibly here:
http://www.biefeldbrown.com/

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Re: brown's device in anomalous environments and its performance

Postby Mikado14 » Wed Aug 27, 2008 8:49 pm

htmagic wrote:So I'd bet a pasta dinner that Dr. Brown may have been aware of the German research on the boundary layer and was searching for Germans working along these lines.


I like my pasta al dente.

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Re: brown's device in anomalous environments and its performance

Postby htmagic » Wed Aug 27, 2008 9:03 pm

Mikado14 wrote:
htmagic wrote:So I'd bet a pasta dinner that Dr. Brown may have been aware of the German research on the boundary layer and was searching for Germans working along these lines.


I like my pasta al dente.

Mikado

Mikado,

Me too, al dente, but before you get your dinner I will need more information on why Dr. Brown was behind enemy lines looking for Germans. Do you know something here that Paul hasn't told us yet? :?

And darn, now you know why i usually don't bet. (Because I usually lose!) :lol:

MagicBill (may be owing an al dente pasta dinner to Mikado...)
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Re: brown's device in anomalous environments and its performance

Postby Mikado14 » Wed Aug 27, 2008 9:25 pm

Magic Bill,

There are times that I wonder why I post things and there are other times that I know why I post them.

I am going to approach this as best as I can:

So I'd bet a pasta dinner that Dr. Brown may have been aware of the German research on the boundary layer and was searching for Germans working along these lines.

You specifically mentioned that Dr. Brown was aware of the boundary layer and went into Germany to find anyone working along these lines. Well, in the book, we do know that he was to meet a German whose specialty was High Voltage and as Mr Twigsnapper pointed out in the forum, and I don't remember where, but that Dr. Brown was like a horseman, he went there to look in their corrals and see if he saw any horses with his lineage were there. I have a better understanding of what occurred during the years for Dr. Brown up until 1943 then you might understand but I can assure you that the boundary layer when approaching the speed of sound is not what he was looking to break. I must say, you really are hung up on the EKG. Remember the year, look at the book and understand that there is a relationship between voltage and the BB effect and it is exponential, there is a key for you.


Now if the B2 bomber uses this technology, we can trace back the roots to the work done by the Germans and Dr. Brown.

Do you understand that the effect that Dr. Brown's Flame Jet Generator has on the B2 can be explained without the Biefeld-Brown effect? Where is the high K dielectric in the B2? If a person understands the effect then they know that it is not on the B2. In the event that you say that the air is the dielectric I want to point out that essentially a plasma is created but in the Biefeld-Brown capacitor the dielectric is solid. I don't know it all by any stretch of the imagination but I want you to explain to me how a plasma is created in a solid dielectric.

Mikado

PS: there will come a day when I will show you and as I said, I like my pasta al dente...<g>
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Re: brown's device in anomalous environments and its performance

Postby htmagic » Thu Aug 28, 2008 3:26 am

Mikado,

Good points. As for the plasma in a solid dielectric, I figured it would ride on top of the surface. Somebody talked about metal electrodes embedded in the material. Some were at the surface, some under and they alternated. This could be the area where the high voltage is delivered. Since the electrodes are in between the dielectrics, it could act as an asymmetric capacitor. Charge the surface of the airfoil and it is reported to repel the air and reduce skin resistance. This would save the airlines thousands of dollars in fuel costs. Why isn't this technology in place? Has anyone done an experiment to prove or disprove this?

Actually, Mikado, I never said the EKGen was related to the Biefeld Brown effect. As I understood it, the EKGen was for what I highlighted in red earlier. The negative charged cloud behind the craft is reported to reduce the friction of the craft by altering the boundary layer. How much could the air resistance be reduced? I don't know but it would be a neat follow on experiment after I build the EKGen. Actually, I was looking at a fan motor assembly the I removed from a defunct hairdryer. I saw the Wright Brothers 100th year commemoration and looked at the wind tunnel that they built to determine the best airfoil shape. Based upon their knowledge of fluid flow and the Bernoulli equations, they built a scale model airfoil shape and put it in the tunnel and measured and recorded the results. From their calculations, they could measure lift and drag on the wing. I may build a small tunnel and determine if high voltage on the wing reduces drag. Should be fun.

Goodnite all. Headed to bed.

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