"Lifter" experiments "In Vacuum"

For a discussion of the science of Townsend Brown, his experiments and his ideas.

"Lifter" experiments "In Vacuum"

Postby Paul S. » Mon Nov 19, 2007 5:07 pm

I've just been looking at some YouTube videos of various lifter-type experiments in vacuum chambers, and what I'm seeing might be contradictory to the conclusions I've been working with re: electrohydrodynamics -v- electrogravitics.

Here is the "perma-link" to the post with the two videos:

http://www.ttbrown.com/2007/11/what-are-we-loo.html

Discuss.

Thanks,

--PS

P.S. I am going to send this link to the individuals who created these videos and attempt to gain their input into the discussion.
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my take

Postby Mark Culpepper » Mon Nov 19, 2007 6:12 pm

My take is really sort of useless in this discussion, not being a scientist and knowing the import of what is being demonstrated here. But from an observer of what I have seen of Townsend Browns " style" so far I doubt seriously that anything that he wrote that has come to the surface right now is at the core of his work. In other words, I think he very carefully seeded when and what he released. The comments that did get out were usually not even followed ( as in the need for higher voltages for example) so I am not even sure what caused those results to be so different. Maybe these new experimenters are just " missing something"

So I am very happy to wait to hear what the originators of these posted experiments have to offer and how that will bubble along in this ever increasing stew we have going here. I am confident that there is a receipe which we will be shown somehow.

Isn't the fact that either of them is getting ANYTHING against what was written as a critical review of Dr. Browns things. "Oh ... they are just ionic wind, they won't work in a vacuum! "

Are there pulses in these new experiments? MarkC
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About Hector

Postby Trickfox » Wed Nov 21, 2007 6:07 am

Paul This was your comments on the You-tube and I think its important to get the issue in the forum now, and perhaps point out that just because the results were never made public all this NEW work on the subject certainly does not surprize me at all. Now they will probably eventually figure out how a "curve ball' feels like when they see what has already been done.

(Paul) Is this a "solid dielectric" electrogravitic capacitor demonstration? It's pretty hard to tell what we're looking at from the video.
If that's what it is, then why is the movement so negligible. Are we supposed to be impressed that there is any movement at all?
So, what are we really seeing here?

(Hector) To answer your question, by all conventional predictions the device should not have moved at all given the low vacuum levels and lack of working reaction fluid. The average power was just over one watt so for something that is not supposed to move at all it's pretty impressive. As I've said I'm putting some new information and videos together to make things clearer. While the electrodes are kept separated by a solid alumina ceramic insulator, the primary dielectric is the vacuum itself. Conceptually it's the same design as a one sided lifter

(trickfox) It's all in "the MATH" at this point. Driver... it's in the "Las Vegas Curve". It's about fine tunning and resonnance but perhaps not using the e/m field

(Hector) For me it's all in the empirical evidence. This experiment has been superceded by a whole new set of experiments and experimental devices that far outperform what you see here. Those devices and the results are being submitted for publishing in a peer reviewed journal soon. The vacuum experiments were the first step toward that end.

(Trickfox) I agree with you hec031, this is empirical evidence, and congratulations of course, but are you claiming to be the first person to do it? In your opinion, is this possibly the same experiment that Thomas Townsend Brown performed at the Bahnson Labs between 1958 and 1960? There is a video of him celebrating his success with a bottle of champaign.

(Hector) I agree that Brown probably got similar results in his experiment, however he fail to publish and share so it could not be confirmed or replicated until recently. I'm certain that what I've found since has no precedence in this field of work, that's why I'm trying publish as soon as possible. I'm not trying to tease, just sharing as much as I can without giving away the farm.
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Posts

Postby Paul S. » Wed Nov 21, 2007 6:40 pm

Thanks, Raymond for putting all that dialog here.

For anybody who wants to follow the original exchange, it's here in YouTube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G359-G4SZlE

I've known Hector for some time, he originally showed up on the fusor net forums years ago. He made the connection between electrogravitics and the need for a highly portable high-voltage source and a gizmo like Farnsworth's fusor. There is evidence in the files that Townsend Brown reached the same conclusion.

However, I do find it a tad frustrating that Hector always says that his results will be public "soon." I think he's been saying that for a coupla/few years now. Does it really take that long to get something published for "peer review." I dunno, maybe when what you've got challenges some of the foundations of contemporary science, it takes longer.

But, how long did it take Einstein to get published in 1905?

So, I remain skeptically respectful of Hector's experiments. But in any event, I still don't think we've seen anything that corroborates the statements Townsend Brown made in his letter to Rho Sigma re: the vacuum experiments in the 1950s.

I'm not saying it didn't happen, only that nobody seems to have replicated the results for... what now? Fifty years. What's up with THAT?

--PS
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Postby flowperson » Wed Nov 21, 2007 6:58 pm

Hi...The "culture wars" which we have been experiencing elsewhere in society since the Vietnam era are probably more fiercely fought in science and the publication of scientific results than anywhere else. It's just not as well known as say gender issues unless you have experienced it. But it is a noticeable phenomenon in issues concerning climate change for instance.

Michael Crichton even jumped in a few years back on the side of the conservatives with the publication of the novel Primal Fear, and got paid lots of bucks by Rupert for his subversive efforts. There's a war going on, and peer review panels of prominent scientific publications are very queasy about knowingly putting themselves into the middle of the fray (understandably). That's why what's going on these days in the global announcements of climate change by international groups of prominent scientists under the auspices of the UN are so important.

Resistance is breaking down because of such efforts, and I might add that online publication of breakthrough findings in other areas of science are short-circuiting the traditional publication ball game.

The best example currently is this indepent physicist Mr. Lisi who has published a Theory of Everything paper that even traditional and prominent researchers are praising. Some more of that kind of stuff, and stuffy walls in the halls of science will come tumbling down and then will need to be rebuilt. My opinion of why it's taken fifty years for some of the hidden stuff to see the light of day is my favorite motto these days, TOO MANY SECRETS !

flow....:wink:
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Postby Trickfox » Thu Nov 22, 2007 12:01 am

"the need for a highly portable high-voltage source and a gizmo like Farnsworth's fusor. There is evidence in the files that Townsend Brown reached the same conclusion. "

This is exactly what we ended up designing also. The smallest box to produce the highest voltage/current supply conversion. Control features were seperate and auxiliary type stuff like computers and pulse shaping networks.

The key to this technology is in the dielectrics or the materials and their integrated construction. The real breakthrough will come when the nanotechnology is engineered around those same critical dialectric principles. For instance, "Coils" will no longer be "wound" from wire. They will "immerge" in subminiature form from the integrated construction of the materials themselves.

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Postby Chris Knight » Fri Nov 23, 2007 5:16 am

I just want to point out that the Biefeld-Brown Effect is not maximized in any ordinary capacitor, and the minor twitchings of the equivalent of an ionic engine are an interesting choice of effects to compare with the definition of the true B-B Effect.

Whether the ambient is a vacuum or not has no bearing whatsoever on the B-B Effect. In any situation, the pressure generated from an apparatus configured (as defined by its parameters) to maximize the B-B Effect, is significant.
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what?

Postby Mark Culpepper » Fri Nov 23, 2007 2:07 pm

Forgive me Andrew.

"Whether the ambient is a vacuum or not has no bearing whatsoever on the B-B Effect. In any situation, the pressure generated from an apparatus configured (as defined by its parameters) to maximize the B-B Effect, is significant."

if the ambient has no bearing on the BB effect then why would Dr. Brown go to so much trouble to have those vacuum tests done in Paris? Or are we looking at a horse of another color here? I get easily confused but I think that I am not the only one. And one discussion mixes meanings with others.

I have read your message above several times and I still don't get it. You need to work in Washington! ( Oh, being mean, sorry) But honestly I think I have caught some of what you mean .... and then realize that my understanding is like nailing jello to the wall. It just doesn't hold together. So .... when you have time .... whenever that might be .... can you just rephrase your message above for the mentally challenged ( especially after a big meal) like me! Thanks! MarkC
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Postby Chris Knight » Fri Nov 23, 2007 3:55 pm

Hi Mark,

We had a thread over at, "Chapter 60: No Need for Formalities," on something similar, but to quote (partially) a post from Page 4:

[quote]"The basic Biefeld-Brown effect is quite simple. It is manifested as a departure from the Coulomb Law of electrostatic attraction, in that the opposite forces are not equal. The negative electrode appears to chase the positive electrode, so that there is a net force of the system (dipole) in the negative-to-positive direction.The Biefeld-Brown Effect states that in a highly charged, two-electrode system, the positive electrode will "lead" the negative electrode in the direction of the line between the two electrodes, or, the negative electrode will appear to be more attracted to the positive electrode than vice-versa. The negative electrode appears to “chaseâ€
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EVEN Higher voltages?

Postby Mark Culpepper » Fri Nov 23, 2007 8:08 pm

Sooooo . What you are saying then is ..... the higher the voltage the bigger the effect? Why then some earlier tests by others trying to follow his work just didn't work all that well because the voltage was underplayed?

What would happen if you could generate two million volts? I ask that for a specific reason but don't want to go into it unless there is an interest in that question. Andrew? Do you have an idea or a theory on that? MarkC
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Postby Chris Knight » Fri Nov 23, 2007 8:18 pm

Mmmm, something along those lines...In part at least. There are a number of variables to take into consideration.

A theory ? Well, there may be some threshold level, but I really couldn't say at this point.
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Postby kevin.b » Fri Nov 23, 2007 9:17 pm

Have you read the works of Walter Russell?
Especially his explanation of how mass is created and vise versa?
http://www.frank.germano.com/walter_russell.htm
I dont know why, but if you create the condition to allow the positive to go back to space, thats where it will go, vise versa.
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quote

Postby Elizabeth Helen Drake » Sat Nov 24, 2007 4:08 am

Thankyou kevin. Much to chew on there. I especially noted a quote from Tesla regarding Russells work

http://www.frank.germano.com/walter_russell.htm

"Examples of such technologies include an “implosion engineâ€
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Trickfoxs shameless repost.

Postby James Barrett » Sat Nov 24, 2007 1:58 pm

Trickfox,

Are you trying to confuse me?. Think that I wouldn't notice? or just lose the conversation after you put it up there? That long " repost" that you put up ... I now can't find anywhere and before I go searching through everything to make sure that you have in fact thought better of it and deleted it, I thought that I would just ask you directly. Where'd it go?

Lots of stuff struck a chord with me but one statement about " saucers WOBBLING looked familiar to me and then I picked up that article from Catalina which was recently printed and there was a quote there about from Linda about how she looked for units that " wobbled". Heres the exact quote

“ Ironically, Brown discussed his complicated research more often with his daughter when she was a child than in later years ( I FOUND THAT AN INTERESTING OBSERVATION, HOW DID THE WRITER REACH THAT CONCLUSION/ HE MUST NOT HAVE READ MUCH OF WHAT PAUL HAS WRITTEN. Jdb) During the 50s Brown was heavily involved in UFO research although the subject of Roswell never came up “.......gap...............â€
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Actually the trickfox has been playing

Postby Trickfox » Sat Nov 24, 2007 4:54 pm

You see being a trickfox is fun......,
you get to go back in time in the forum and play around with past events WHICH HAPPENED only back then.
Here is the trick behind TIME TRAVEL. If you don't pay attention to every little detail in the NOW, then you don't know for sure if anyone from the future has come back and changed your perception.
For instance..... JDB could be travelling back from the future to remind me to repost the long shameless post that I put in the forum earlier....because he assumed that I removed it.....or not....
http://forum.ttbrown.com/viewtopic.php? ... eless#6925

Or .....Perhaps I did remove it.

Perhaps, I was playing with someone else's reality at that moment.... Because others who came later into this forum did not get to see this post. The futre was thus changed for them as a result.
Some people know the future as it was before the post, and other experience the future after it was changed.

Only Mr. T knows for sure, since he's behind itall.
This is going to turn out to be SOME KIND of NOTEPAD FOR RANDOM IDEAS

Of course if you wanna talk about saucers that wobble then you need Vitoria Steele's quote:
I just don't believe what that scientist was working on and what the Canadians eventually turned over to the United States was the same thing! It was rumored through Lusors writings I guess that tests in Germany had seen THAT thing fly at speeds of upwards of 1250 mph and reach altitudes over 8 miles. Can any of you see the AVROCAR doing that? As grinder said earlier the thing wobbled four feet off the ground. Ridiculous.


But then there is this OTHER post about wobbling JDB:
http://forum.ttbrown.com/viewtopic.php?p=7246#7246

The Maury Island UFO Incident
The mystery starts with a UFO sighting by Harold Dahl on June 21, 1947, 2:00 pm over Maury Island Washington. Dahl along with his son and two crewmen were salvaging logs south of Maury Island when they saw six doughnut shaped disks hovering over the bay. One disk was wobbling and appeared to be in trouble. It lowered itself to about 500 feet above the water and was joined by five other disks. Upon what appeared to be assistance from one of the disks, the floundering disk dropped what appeared to be shiny aluminum metal on the beach followed by black lava like rock (or slag) into the water which created steam upon hitting the water. The falling slag wounded Dahl¹s son Charles and killed their dog. Charles was taken to the local hospital in Tacoma for first aid and the dog¹s body was buried at sea on their return trip. Kenneth Arnold¹s UFO Sighting Three days later on June 24, 1947, a pilot and Federal Marshall by the name of Kenneth Arnold saw nine disks ³skipping² across the North face of Mt. Rainier and was to become the sighting in which media coined the term ³Flying Saucer². He was interviewed by local and national press including Edward R. Murrow and his sighting made radio and news headlines around the world. He was later interviewed by 1st Lt. Frank M. Brown along with Capt. William L. Davidson from Hamilton Field in California.


Also this: http://forum.ttbrown.com/viewtopic.php?p=2661#2661

So.... Perhaps you would like to ask Paul to Ask Linda to tell us more about the "WOBBLING" issue

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