Honda Replication 1996

For a discussion of the science of Townsend Brown, his experiments and his ideas.

Honda Replication 1996

Postby Gewis » Fri Nov 09, 2007 7:31 pm

Hi all, sorry for my long absence from the forums. I'm still staying on the research side of things. Researchers at Honda replicated the Brown experiment and found weight reduction (imagine that!), and experimentally rejected ion wind as a possible source. Also, they found the same sidereal radiation effects that Brown reported: strength of effect based on when the experiment was performed. Previously I didn't see anybody else report this particular thing on the forums, but if it has been, I apologize.

Here are links:

http://jnaudin.free.fr/lifters/musha/Musha.pdf

<http://jnaudin.free.fr/files/bbeffect.pdf> Edit: This link is now broken, even though it worked as of 11/8/07, while this was posted 11/9/07. I'm not sure what I triggered, and there are simpler explanations than conspiracy theories. :)

http://jnaudin.free.fr/lifters/musha/Musha-Presen.pdf

-Gewis
"If we knew what we were doing, it wouldn't be called research!" -Einstein
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You are on the late show buddy

Postby Trickfox » Wed Nov 14, 2007 4:21 am

Gewis

I don't want to discourage you here but it is very obvious that you have not searched the forum enough yet. We covered every aspect you mentioned several times over. WE HAVE OVER 10,000 posts in this forum so if you want to know anything about TT Brown's past activities, I strongly suggest that you forget anything anyone else writes on other website and simply look for the information HERE. You can even use the "search' function since you are a registered member.

Honda could have saved themselves a lot of money if they had simply asked Paul about it.

Remember THIS WEBSITE IS "THE AUTHORITY" ON THE SUBJECT OF WHAT T.T. BROWN WAS ACTUALLY DOING IN THE PAST.

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complimentary, BUT

Postby Elizabeth Helen Drake » Wed Nov 14, 2007 5:02 pm

Trickfox and Gewis

I am sure that Paul appreciates the vote of confidence Trickfox in your response to Gewis, but neither one of us would even begin to say that we are the end all of the information out there. Maybe we are the seed! And a good fat seed well worth investigating and taking notes on maybe, but Paul will tell you that there are many holes in our understanding of the situation too.

I will say that MOST of what has been talked about regarding the life of Townsend Brown has come directly from Andrew Bollands original soteria site ..... or now the linked information front that he and Paul offer.

Gewis, You will be able to see how very many times this information has been used to credit other people. No way to stop that except to better inform. So I invite you to take some time and browse through the information you will find on Andrews Qualight.com or here on this Forum. That way you will at least have our version of the story and can go from there.

Hopefully there are others out there who can say more and maybe through all of our efforts in different directions they might bring their information to the surface. We are not a full cup. There is always room for more information. And I personally thank you both for the work and the interest that you are showing ................ Elizabeth
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Postby Gewis » Thu Nov 15, 2007 3:52 am

For bloody heaven's sake, Trickfox. I was not claiming anybody had done anything original here. And while I may not have posted in a long time, I have been paying enough attention that I know these things have been talked about. When the title of the thread includes the word "replication," maybe that ought to clue you in before you rip into me.

I was talking about recent experimental verification of T.T. Brown's work conducted by Honda, to include a test with massive (as opposed to massless) dielectric. See, this part of the forum is the SCIENCE of Townsend Brown, and science requires reproduceability. This was not an inquiry into Brown's past activities. It was Brown's past activities that inspired the desire to test his claims, and here is the result of the test saying, "Yes, the effect is real and cannot be attributable to ion wind or strict general relativistic calculations." Nobody is trying to steal Brown's credit, nor was there any language in what I posted to suggest otherwise.

Again, if you'll look at the title, there's a year given too. Paul knew nothing of this in 1996, so Honda couldn't have asked him. What I added was not superfluous or irrelevant. It was these papers concerning recent experiments confirming Brown's effects (both lift and time-dependent magnitude of lift) that were the particular thing I hadn't found reference to. Please, PLEASE, read carefully before offering criticism so you can know what it is you're criticizing.

I have followed everything here closely, and what I refuse to surrender is an element of skepticism. Townsend Brown had fantastic claims, so from the standpoint of science, those claims need to be tested. Everybody here with a rational head should agree. So, for the benefit of everybody with a rational head, here's an experimental verification of Brown's claims.
"If we knew what we were doing, it wouldn't be called research!" -Einstein
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Postby Gewis » Thu Nov 15, 2007 3:59 am

However, with that said, Langley did also refer to the experiment. It doesn't appear many people paid attention, based on the replies. The above still stands.

http://forum.ttbrown.com/viewtopic.php? ... honda#7688
"If we knew what we were doing, it wouldn't be called research!" -Einstein
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Forgive me

Postby Trickfox » Sat Nov 17, 2007 7:46 am

Please forgive me, I think I'm guilty of my own acused criticism here. I should have re read everything you wrote in your past posts first.

Do you see the confusion in having to look at all the posts before commenting? I just lost track of your background knowledge.

It's the JLN website reference that pushed my buttons...

The lifter crowd annoys me a tad bit. There are so many weird and conspiratorial histories out there that every time I hear the name Jean-Louis Naudin my eyes roll up :roll:

Geez I can't imagine how some people can keep up with all these posts anymore.

Please accept my apology

Trickfox
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you just know alot

Postby twigsnapper » Sat Nov 17, 2007 1:59 pm

Trickfox,

You are in an interesting position here Trickfox of knowing alot but not being able to do anything with that knowledge.

Well..... welcome to the world of Townsend Brown.

It turns now basically into a waiting game. A waiting game with no knowledge of the time frame all of this will actually take. If you believe it has been tough for you, imagine for a moment what it has been like for Linda Brown.

Some things you just have to wait to develop before the next stage takes over. I am not putting any burden on Paul that he hasn't already accepted and shouldered. He is doing well what he has been drawn to do. But I am sure that you realize that there are other " developments" that are " bubbling up to the surface" and much of the forward motion around this subject just flat takes time to happen. Only so much pushing is appropriate.

And I read things too Trickfox that make my eyes roll and my teeth grind. But usually its flip stuff that others have written without proper understanding. I understand how upsetting that is for you. You want people to get things right because time is so precious. Yes, I understand.

Patience is a difficult word for you and me to swallow. But it is still there. twigsnapper
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Postby flowperson » Sun Nov 18, 2007 10:04 pm

Hi...I'm so used to NOT seeing posts anywhere else but in the top of the forums I didn't notce this little gambit until just now.

Yes Mr.T it is indeed ironic how the fickle finger of fate works upon us all. Until late last spring I drove cab here and saved my money for rainy days. The rainy days are here( that's a joke, it's the driest desert in the USA !), and I'm doing okay. But there's one thing that driving cab does for you, it teaches you patience as no other work can.

I used to tell to tell passengers some days when the going was slow and they had asked didn't I get frustrated sometimes..."well yes, but you know who the very first cabdriver was?"
They of course were flummoxed until I answered...Job.

Job has also been documented by scholars to likely be the oldest story in the Bible from a mythological standpoint, pieced together from the oral histories and poems of the desert people in the middle east before there was any history set down.

When the mythologies of the almighty hidden G-d did come along later, that's when we all began to have to wait for things to happen. Perfection and continuance does take time to construct. The troubles usually begin to happen when someone or other jumps the gun in some way or another. It all reminds me of the phrase, "fullness of time".

flow....:wink:
Dancing is better than marching
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in Vegas

Postby Victoria Steele » Sun Nov 18, 2007 11:23 pm

Flow, were you driving cab in Vegas? If so, shall I give you your medal now or wait until someday we meet. That town is CRAZY. Whenever I go there we just park the car and never see it again until we are headed out. I just don't know how you guys do it, but I am sure glad that you were there.

And I like the expression " In the fullness of time" too. Has a sort of comforting tone to it.

Who knows, now that Trickfox has renamed the " Vega Curve" The Las Vegas Curve, perhaps we will all meet there some day.

In the fullness of time , sigh. Victoria
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Postby Gewis » Mon Nov 19, 2007 10:44 am

Thank you for the apology, Trickfox. My own patience could have been thicker as well, and I'm sorry as well.

What is fascinating about Musha's papers is that he has calculations for the effect, and in the small scope of the experiments the calculations agree. It appears, based on these equations, that the dielectric constant isn't so important until much higher fields (like 10^11 V/m). I started playing around with the numbers in Maple. It acts a lot like a resonance effect, in Musha's math, and the force increases nearly asymptotically in regions that no materials I can find can withstand. (Kapton CR can handle 291 MV/m, three orders of magnitude below what's necessary for the asymptotic region.) Of course, this is all stuff that I'd like to test in conjunction with everything else Brown I'm doing. My 770 kV DC power supply should be up and running by Friday of next week.

Here are some interesting features of the math:
-The effect acts solely on the dielectric (agreement with Brown).
-The effect is proportional to the mass of the dielectric (agreement with Brown). This is a linear proportionality, and zero dielectric mass means zero effect. Andrew disagreed with me on this point about Brown's claims, and he has presumably built more discs than I have (none yet for me), but the test to find out which is right is rather simple in concept (vacuum test!).
-The effect is inversely proportional to the square of the thickness of the dielectric. (Agreement with Brown in that there's proportionality) That is, if you apply a voltage enough to have a 1:1 thrust-to-weight (dielectric weight) ratio, by halving the dielectric thickness, the ratio becomes 4:1.
-The effect is proportional to the square of the applied voltage. (Same sort of agreement with brown in that there's proportionality.) Double the voltage, quadruple the force. This is only true in field regions below 10^10 V/m.
-Above the asymptotic force region, the force drops again.

I need more data and more variation of parameters before I can say that the math works. It coincided with the Honda tests, is all. The math does not account for sidereal radiation effects, which were detected.

Two things really leap out at me here. The first is that the shape of the voltage-to-force graph for a given dielectric constant arises from Zero-point vacuum considerations, and it mirrors resonance curves. This lends additional credence to both Haisch/Puthoff ZPF theories (the origin of Musha's math) and Myron Evans's Unified Field Theory (which predicts resonance interactions between gravity and electricity, first published 2003). The second is that the best direction for flying craft development would be multi-layered capacitors with very thin dielectrics and much smaller applied waveform voltages. With Kapton CR, plugging in numbers, you can have a 20:1 thrust-to-weight ratio at any thickness, but smaller thickness means smaller voltage, i.e. on the order of 50kV for half a millimeter thick. This is only what leaps out from the needs-to-be-tested math.[/list]
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Re: you just know alot

Postby Gewis » Mon Nov 19, 2007 10:52 am

twigsnapper wrote:Some things you just have to wait to develop before the next stage takes over. I am not putting any burden on Paul that he hasn't already accepted and shouldered. He is doing well what he has been drawn to do. But I am sure that you realize that there are other " developments" that are " bubbling up to the surface" and much of the forward motion around this subject just flat takes time to happen. Only so much pushing is appropriate.


Bubbling up is such a perfect way to describe it, Twigsnapper. The ESA's rotating superconductor experiments, Podkletnov, Evans, Haisch and Puthoff, Lisi (just this last week!), and other things that keep popping up. It's like watching water boil. First you get a bubble here, and then one there, but pretty soon the entire service is rolling in it. Places like these forums are adding to the heat.
"If we knew what we were doing, it wouldn't be called research!" -Einstein
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a different language

Postby James Barrett » Mon Nov 19, 2007 11:53 am

Having just responded to a message that kevin sent, I now get a chance to read your mathamatical look at the situation and I have to say, even thought I don't understand a word of what you have said, that I get the sense that you are somehow right on course with this thing.

I brought up the subject of journal keeping with kevin. Noting that it might really be important for him to document the thoughts that come to him during this interaction and I wondered also if you are doing he same. You must be, it would be the scientific thing to do. But I wondered if you are also noting the "odd" sort of "off the wall" thoughts that might occur to you which are NOT scientifically based.

I noticed that Dr. Brown wrote in his first journal which Paul just quoted that HID journals would capture EVERY thought ( even the wild hare ones) so I am adding that thought to the boiling kettle that you are seeing.

Are you keeping such a journal? It need not be shared with anyone at the moment. Write it as if no one will ever read it. As if its just you and the page as sort of a special friend. That way you don't edit those wilder thoughts because somehow they don't conform. Write about Alice in Wonderland if the image strikes you. But my suggestion is to write and keep that journal safely, because there is something magical happening here, a magic bubble if you wish and it needs to be recorded by those who are in the middle of the experience. Just my outsider opinion. JDB
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Postby greggvizza » Mon Nov 19, 2007 1:54 pm

Gewis wrote:The effect is proportional to the square of the applied voltage. (Same sort of agreement with brown in that there's proportionality.) Double the voltage, quadruple the force. This is only true in field regions below 10^10 V/m.
-Above the asymptotic force region, the force drops again.


Gewis,

I have a few questions, but first I would like to make the comment that it is exciting to see the three words “asymptotic force regionâ€
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Postby Mikado14 » Mon Nov 19, 2007 2:53 pm

Gewis wrote: The second is that the best direction for flying craft development would be multi-layered capacitors with very thin dielectrics and much smaller applied waveform voltages. With Kapton CR, plugging in numbers, you can have a 20:1 thrust-to-weight ratio at any thickness, but smaller thickness means smaller voltage, i.e. on the order of 50kV for half a millimeter thick. This is only what leaps out from the needs-to-be-tested math.


Just like building a cake. Sound familiar gregg?

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Postby Gewis » Mon Nov 19, 2007 9:31 pm

[quote="greggvizza"]
Question 1. When you give a figure such as 10^10 V/m, what are you applying meters to?

Question 2. How is it possible to make the statement “Above the asymptotic force regionâ€
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