lifters in a vacuum

[Mikado14]

To ETernalight

I want to make something perfectly clear here. What I have said in the previous post is basic. It is about as basic as comparing your $.25 balsa airplane to the space shuttle. This is my opinion.

I will say this. IF you do build and IF you charge this up to lift potential, be Carefull

In a previous post I mentioned something somewhere about needle nose pliers and the smell of ozone and being knocked across the room. Well, that was about 25kV, not exactly what you will need to get a disc flying but you might be able to play with a small lifter, not sure for I never did one of those.

I could go on but if I did then as the old saying goes, "I'd have to kill you"<g> (just kidding) My knowledge, at this time, is free and not proprietary. Hell, you might see the forest while we are too busy looking at the trees.

Mikado

[Trickfox]

Your right, but them I was exhausted when I wrote that of course. (just got out of treatment)
I realised you are correct it's the reverse of what I said. See I still have trouble with the simplest stuff about it.

Darned. I have to slow down a bit but everything is moving fast here.

Trickfox

[Mikado14]

Your right, but them I was exhausted when I wrote that of course. (just got out of treatment)
I realised you are correct it's the reverse of what I said. See I still have trouble with the simplest stuff about it.

Darned. I have to slow down a bit but everything is moving fast here.

Trickfox

But Trickfox, you do what you do best,, the differential equations necessary for the basic high lift potential disc.

But then, on the other hand, I think you just keep going where you are. Build from the atom up, so to speak.

Mikado

PS: GET SOME REST

[Elizabeth Helen Drake]

Yes guys, take care of yourselves. Sitting in the warmth around here watching the news channels. Snow all over, many feet high and of course I worry about you both. And Martin in Buffalo! Haven't heard from you at all, at all! are you snow bound or have you left for the tropics? What I would do. Just letting you all know that we are thinking of you. Take a deep breath everybody! Spring is not far away! Elizabeth

[ETernalightwithin]

Thank you for your concern. I've had a few buzzes to the body. Haven't been thrown across the room yet, thank God.
Yeah I know it's basic. I'm just trying to get the crap out from Cook and Vassilatos. Yeah they got me here and tell a good story, but perhaps they didn't more harm than good?

ETlight

To ETernalight

I want to make something perfectly clear here. What I have said in the previous post is basic. It is about as basic as comparing your $.25 balsa airplane to the space shuttle. This is my opinion.

I will say this. IF you do build and IF you charge this up to lift potential, be Carefull

In a previous post I mentioned something somewhere about needle nose pliers and the smell of ozone and being knocked across the room. Well, that was about 25kV, not exactly what you will need to get a disc flying but you might be able to play with a small lifter, not sure for I never did one of those.

I could go on but if I did then as the old saying goes, "I'd have to kill you"<g> (just kidding) My knowledge, at this time, is free and not proprietary. Hell, you might see the forest while we are too busy looking at the trees.

Mikado

[Elizabeth Helen Drake]

I will say that Vassilatos does have some interesting things to say. And some of the things seem to resonate properly and then he goes off on these tangents that Paul and I KNOW are incorrect. So how do you reconcile the parts of his story where he just SEEMS to be somehow on the right trail. Its most puzzling. Almost as if he totally misinterpretted the information that he was given. So was that intentional or did he just tweek it to fit his own agenda or the thoughts that he already had in his mind. Some of what he wrote about Dr. Brown were pure fancy.

And if they were not? Where is he now to stand up infront of his words? As far as I know no one has been able to even contact him!

So Gerry, if you are out there PLEASE join us so that we can get the whole view of a very unfinished picture!

As for Cook. I think he probably could have done a very good job of the Townsend Brown story but somehow he just couldn't see it. He admitted that after hearing about " Browns involvement" with "The Philadelphia Experiment" he wouldn't touch him with a " barge pole" . His words. Fortunately perhaps .... because its obvious to me that Paul is the one that has the proper sensitivity.

Someone had to yell at him about the Germans ......" They were trying to build a "f*##* Time Machine" but still Cook ..... never really saw the trail because he looked too hard at the Philadelphia Experiment.

You might note that Paul came into this thing without looking at William Moores book at all. In fact, he is STILL hard pressed to look at those pages! I imagine that is a surprise to most! Elizabeth

[ETernalightwithin]

Exactly... Don't get me wrong, it's all a "at the edge of your chair" good story. Granted I take everything with a grain of salt.
The frustration comes in, when one tries to weed out fact from fiction. Everyone will color it to their own perceptions and agenda. Not that I'm accusing any author for being intentionally dishonest.
It just that when you come in here and , being into the science part of the thing, try to fit pieces of the puzzle together. Some don't FIT! Cause you have several people saying different things. Since science is somewhat of an detail demanding discipline... grrr <sigh>.
Thank you Paul for your intellectual honesty and perseverance. I'm glad that when you don't know, you say "I don't know".
Where I come from, truth is truth, and a little "white lie" makes the whole thing stinks.

ETlight

P.S. sorry for rambling. It helps the calm the rage within.

I will say that Vassilatos does have some interesting things to say. And some of the things seem to resonate properly and then he goes off on these tangents that Paul and I KNOW are incorrect.
Elizabeth

[ETernalightwithin]

Capacitors in Parallel increase voltage, and in series increase capacitance.
That is as far as I want to explain

Yes, but everyone knows that. Heck, Physics II tells you that much.

I think I speak for everyone by saying that we are all searching as you are about these issues.

Don't I know it.

Andrew Bolland has his designs at Qualight LLC. Why don't you ask him about how he intends to build his capacitive material device.

Err, and he would just tell me? Not if he was Mikado's 2nd personality.


ETlight

[Trickfox]

ET...

Maybe Andrew would work with you on this. I have had a few conversations with him about the technology. He has never held back any knowledge from me. I don't think he would do it openly on the forum but if you send him a private message for him you might find him to be very knowledgeable and ready to help.

Trickfox

[Mikado14]

Capacitors in Parallel increase voltage, and in series increase capacitance.
That is as far as I want to explain

Yes, but everyone knows that. Heck, Physics II tells you that much.

You still don't have it correct:



Now, when you start to build your disc, you will need the bottom equation to calculate the capacitance value. In order to calculate the distance between the plates, you will need to know the breakdown voltage of the dielectric you are working with and that will be determined by the total voltage you will be applying to the disc. Kind of a balancing act. You will more than likely build more than one and you will develop a set of parameters based upon the above variables and a few more as you progress.

Start small with a 12" disc as your positive and go for a 3" negative. You will find that a relationship will exist on the ratio between the area of the positive vs. negative. Also, don't forget that voltage is a factor here as well. There is one more factor that must be considered in choosing your dielectric.........

I must say, this is only one avenue of gravitics and you will have a disc spinning around a pole.....now what next?

Mikado

[Mikado14]

Err, and he would just tell me? Not if he was Mikado's 2nd personality.


ETlight

Ok Pennsy boy....you got me laughing to the point I might just have to void!

2nd personality? Is that all? In the 80's I had a friend give me the moniker of "Buckaroo Banzaii", then I saw the movie and still had to ask him why? Had a few others as well but I have had Mikado for about 13 years now. Each one was chosen for a particular characteristic of my personality...

You still have me laughing....

Mikado

[Gewis]

Ah, this discussion topic is what brought me to actually make contact with the community here at all.

Mikado is right on the money about the difference between lifters and brown's discs: the dielectric. Brown stated, paraphrasing, that the effect is contingent upon 5 factors: area of the plates (larger area = larger effect), separation of the plates (smaller separation = larger effect), voltage applied to the plates (higher voltage = larger effect), dielectric constant of the dielectric (higher dielectric K = larger effect), and the clincher: mass of the dielectric.

In lifters, the dielectric is air, and and the lifter may have a small Biefeld-Brown effect, but the devices are in effect electrostatic pumps. So when you place a lifter in vacuum, vacuum becomes the new dielectric between the cathode and anode. What is the mass of vacuum? Zero. What is the magnitude of the Biefeld-Brown effect? Zero.

Mikado says solid dielectric is necessary. I agree with the principle. Massive dielectric is the key, but it doesn't have to be solid. Fluid dielectric contained between the plates ought to suffice and in fact has several advantages over solid dielectrics. If voltage on a solid dielectric is brought too high, then arcing occurs across the dielectric creating a conductive channel through it, forever ruining it. Fluids, on the other hand, have the ability to heal after arcing.

Of course, a very good question here is, "How do you contain a fluid dielectric between the plates without using a solid to contain it?" Well, you don't. But you can use a polycarbonate around the outside of the gap with a high voltage tolerance to prevent arcing, and then fill the interior of the capacitor with the fluid dielectric. This also allows testing of air at 1 atm vs 2 atm, inside the disc (but the disc in vacuum). Varying the atm this way allows a direct test of the proportionality relationship between dielectric mass and effect strength.

I should post a diagram of the idea, if words don't convey it well.

Congratulations to Mikado for seeing this crucial point. I saw it independently about a week and a half ago, when I was ignoring these forums and reading over null results from vacuum tests.

[kevin.b]

Gewis,
The planet uses Hydrogen.
Kevin

[Gewis]

Gewis,
The planet uses Hydrogen.
Kevin

I'm not sure on your meaning. Planet composition is hydrogen? The planet's processes use hydrogen? Which processes? Maybe deuterium (a hydrogen isotope) is fusing in metal lattices in the core, which is driving some of the internal heat?

If you could clarify your meaning, it would be helpful.

[kevin.b]

Gewis,
I simply watch nature.
The incoming space flows into the earth via water.
The hydrogen part of water appears as the carrier of space.
The more space clamped onto the hydrogen, the more ENERGY it has.
If you expect to stick your magnets out in space?, where its a bit cold, then what substance would be best suited?
Also, if its a craft carrying people ( 21 centigrade?)
Then how do you transfer heat and cooling to maintain 21 centigrade?
Answer = hydrogen?
Just a few practical thoughts in this scientific world.
Kevin