lifters in a vacuum

For a discussion of the science of Townsend Brown, his experiments and his ideas.

ok, now what?

Postby Mikado14 » Sun Feb 18, 2007 5:11 pm

twigsnapper wrote:And Mikado. You guess about the three men is interesting but was not to be.


It was only a poor shot, apparently a very poor shot, at humor.

twigsnapper wrote:And you are right to focus on 1958.


I am not too sure it is '58 but it is a focal point in the end of the fifties. So much, so very much is going on from about '54 through '61. Names and patents and places....oh my!

twigsnapper wrote:And the question then is , "if the flame jet generator" is not what you need for the effect that you want. Where then do you go for what you want?


It is apparent as it was months ago, and stated in the forum, you've admitted it finally <G> But wouldn't that be in the 60's and possibly into the '70s? At least via the materials I have read but then cripes, by now I should know to be more cynical of what I read.

And regards to the "Flame Jet Generator", if you look into Lord Kelvin you will see that it is an extrapolation of some of his work. I have to wonder if Dr. Brown knew this but developed it to keep some people happy. Why would he want a device that could only operate in a combustible atmosphere? Oh yeah, that's right, the military would want it.

Answer this, you were with him in France when he tested in a vacuum. Did he use a Flame Jet Generator to produce his requirements? I would bet those navy beans he didn't. It was a dead end for him and was not his path.

twigsnapper wrote:Watch Dr. Browns path very carefully. When he is powering up, another is saying " I have seen all I needed to see" and is shutting down.

Paul, this is not a puzzle for you. You already know the answer to this one.
twigsnapper


I suppose he does.....and has for some time.

Mikado

PS: So Mr. Twigsnapper, just a simple question. Where were you around the second week of January? Had a very strange visitor. Told me not to get involved with Dr. Brown's work. He was about 80 and had a cane and was about 5' 4"? Told me it was a "bad road to go down".
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy
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two of us?

Postby twigsnapper » Sun Feb 18, 2007 6:08 pm

Mikado,

Regarding the second week of January. Probably somewhere warm. I don't actually recall.
Someone with a cane and about my age? And speaking of Townsend Browns work? Who would even know that you are considering going down any road at all regarding "Browns work"? These are questions best answered by yourself. A bad road? Or a difficult road? In all cases it should come down to your own decision alone. A good road for one can be a "bad road" for another and it is totally an individual decision. As is the decision of who that individual might have been.

Maybe it was my evil parallel twin. No wait. Maybe I am him and the guy at your door was the good guy? <g> Him or me. Only your heart can choose the right path.

twigsnapper
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Re: two of us?

Postby Mikado14 » Sun Feb 18, 2007 6:23 pm

twigsnapper wrote:Mikado,

Regarding the second week of January. Probably somewhere warm. I don't actually recall.
Someone with a cane and about my age? And speaking of Townsend Browns work? Who would even know that you are considering going down any road at all regarding "Browns work"? These are questions best answered by yourself. A bad road? Or a difficult road? In all cases it should come down to your own decision alone. A good road for one can be a "bad road" for another and it is totally an individual decision. As is the decision of who that individual might have been.

Maybe it was my evil parallel twin. No wait. Maybe I am him and the guy at your door was the good guy? <g> Him or me. Only your heart can choose the right path.

twigsnapper


There is something about you I really like.....but I am still trying to figure it out <g>. You managed to address, at length, my Post Script but you totally avoided any comments on the body. I suppose that is an answer unto itself.

As I tend to call them,.......a real twigsnapper, like walking in the woods, what do you do when you hear a twigsnap? You listen.

Mikado

PS: here's another post script for you. As you know (you seem to know a lot of what is going on), it fell upon deaf ears.
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy
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doors and deaf ears

Postby twigsnapper » Sun Feb 18, 2007 9:13 pm

Mikado,

You have to understand I did not mean to slight off an answer. I just didn't really see the question. You asked if Dr. Brown was working with the flame jet generator in France. No.

But then, thats what I put together from the very little that he said to me. Remember that I was on one side of the door most of the time while he was on the other. I have yet to utilize X ray vision. So I am telling you my impression. I guess when I saw that you had reached that conclusion already I just let it go. I tend to do that. Ask Paul.

Dr. Brown and I had not personally crossed paths since Germany in 1945 so it was nice to see him again after those ten years. I guess you can sort of see it in the photo in Paris that he was feeling pretty good, though ... who was it? ... Victoria? early in one of these discussions guessed that he was cold. He was. Didn't like the dampness at all. It was a cold spring that year and though his company was wonderful it was not exactly the romantic Paris that I had remembered. He though, managed to maintain his good spirits. I was, as you have guessed (or was that Victoria) on edge.

My route at the time was .... Berlin, Paris, London and Washington DC. Surprising how unromantic those cities can be.

Interesting look on the name I have had chosen for me. One view I guess. I always liked finding where the breaking point was for some of my students. Always nice to know ahead of time. Hence the name. twigsnapper And I expected those deaf ears.
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Re: two of us?

Postby ETernalightwithin » Sun Feb 18, 2007 10:57 pm

I'm probably just vocalizing what everyone is thinking, but these types of encounters are creepy.

It's all well and good to say, follow your heart and don't let others deter you. Yet, we all know that there are probably groups of people out there that make it their business to know everything about Brown, including what other's know about him. Whether for good or nefarious intent, in the end it all comes down to control. And that's not necessarily a bad thing. Just that mikado has every right to feel the way he does. I, like him, would want to stave off any lead in brains as far as possible.

One can know too much for ones own good. It's happened before.

ETlight

P.S. This is of course no reflection on Mr. Mikado or Mr. Twigsnapper's honor. Just a young fool saying it how he sees it.

twigsnapper wrote:Regarding the second week of January. Probably somewhere warm. I don't actually recall.
Someone with a cane and about my age? And speaking of Townsend Browns work? Who would even know that you are considering going down any road at all regarding "Browns work"? These are questions best answered by yourself. A bad road? Or a difficult road? In all cases it should come down to your own decision alone. A good road for one can be a "bad road" for another and it is totally an individual decision. As is the decision of who that individual might have been.

Maybe it was my evil parallel twin. No wait. Maybe I am him and the guy at your door was the good guy? <g> Him or me. Only your heart can choose the right path.

twigsnapper
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Postby Gewis » Mon Feb 19, 2007 7:41 pm

These encounters are weird. Thank you, folks, especially Andrew, for your help. I'm going out to begin construction on my power supply right now, after looking up necessities. We're going with a Van de Graaff generator aiming at a spark gap voltage limiter. Then we'll have details on the operating output of that, which will give us parameters for what sorts of discs we can build.

Stay tuned! :)
Last edited by Gewis on Wed Feb 21, 2007 2:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
"If we knew what we were doing, it wouldn't be called research!" -Einstein
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lifter forum contribution , again

Postby Elizabeth Helen Drake » Tue Feb 20, 2007 3:27 pm

This comment is from David on the Lifter Forum. I thought that the reference might be useful....................... he posts



Ok, which book is best?

For "Dielectric Phenomena in High Voltage Engineering"

1929 F.W Peek ,(McGraw-Hill, New York, 1929)

2003 F.W. Peek and H. K. Humphrey

2006 F.W. Peek Jr. "First Edition" (Hardcover - May 30, 2006)

David


EVERYBODY .... Looks like Mr. Peeks son ( or grandson) is carrying on. and my answer to Davids question of which one is best. Why either or? Try both. Elizabeth
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triboelectric? or not..

Postby Mikado14 » Wed Feb 21, 2007 2:52 pm

Gewis wrote:These encounters are weird. Thank you, folks, especially Andrew, for your help. I'm going out to begin construction on my power supply right now, after looking up necessities. We're going with a Van de Graaff generator aiming at a spark gap voltage limiter. Then we'll have details on the operating output of that, which will give us parameters for what sorts of discs we can build.

Stay tuned! :)


Can I assume that you are talking a real Van de Graaff and not one as found in educational Physics labs for demonstration purposes?

Mikado
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy
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Re: triboelectric? or not..

Postby Gewis » Wed Feb 21, 2007 7:18 pm

Mikado14 wrote:Can I assume that you are talking a real Van de Graaff and not one as found in educational Physics labs for demonstration purposes?

Mikado


What's the difference? *joke*

Yes, we'll be building a real one. A high-voltage (200V?) DC input supply with high-rpm driver (likely just a cheap 24V DC motor) with insulated shaft for high current. That is, high compared to demonstration devices. Then we're going to have an adjustable spark-gap limiter to keep voltage around 100 kV (aiming for a peak of 300 kV without the limiter), and output should have fairly constant current. This thing should pack a punch.

-Gewis

P.S. The electronics supply store was closed on President's Day, and I'm under the gun this week for coursework, so there's a week's delay.
"If we knew what we were doing, it wouldn't be called research!" -Einstein
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guns?

Postby ETernalightwithin » Wed Feb 21, 2007 7:53 pm

irritating parential unit or nagging spousal overseer?

ETLW

P.S. I always wondered how one would control energy without solid state.
How is your gap configured? stationary gap, rotating, magnetic, air, or compressed gas? all these are Tesla variants, for those that don't know.
He was the "gap" master
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Re: triboelectric? or not..

Postby Mikado14 » Wed Feb 21, 2007 9:02 pm

Gewis wrote:
Mikado14 wrote:Can I assume that you are talking a real Van de Graaff and not one as found in educational Physics labs for demonstration purposes?

Mikado


What's the difference? *joke*

Yes, we'll be building a real one. A high-voltage (200V?) DC input supply with high-rpm driver (likely just a cheap 24V DC motor) with insulated shaft for high current. That is, high compared to demonstration devices. Then we're going to have an adjustable spark-gap limiter to keep voltage around 100 kV (aiming for a peak of 300 kV without the limiter), and output should have fairly constant current. This thing should pack a punch.

-Gewis

P.S. The electronics supply store was closed on President's Day, and I'm under the gun this week for coursework, so there's a week's delay.


Gewis,

If your aiming for only 300 kV with constant current, a demonstration type that is of the triboelectric type would give you what you want.

Just a thought, (looking at cost mind you)

Mikado
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy
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Re: triboelectric? or not..

Postby Gewis » Wed Feb 21, 2007 11:08 pm

Mikado14 wrote:
Gewis,

If your aiming for only 300 kV with constant current, a demonstration type that is of the triboelectric type would give you what you want.

Just a thought, (looking at cost mind you)

Mikado


Agreed. We've looked at triboelectric. For immediate cost, it's quite a bit better. For longer term robust applications, the other set-up seems easier to upgrade and should provide higher current to deal with energy losses associated with larger surface area discs.

There are always trade-offs. This seems a good middle-of-the-road.
"If we knew what we were doing, it wouldn't be called research!" -Einstein
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Re: guns?

Postby Gewis » Wed Feb 21, 2007 11:13 pm

ETernalightwithin wrote:irritating parential unit or nagging spousal overseer?

ETLW

P.S. I always wondered how one would control energy without solid state.
How is your gap configured? stationary gap, rotating, magnetic, air, or compressed gas? all these are Tesla variants, for those that don't know.
He was the "gap" master


Hah! Parental units are far away, and I'm not married. I go on dates from time to time, though. Usually it's of the, "Hey, we just finished our homework, let's go grab some food real quick," variety. Does that even count?

I keep myself under the gun. My classes are such that there is a connection between doing homework and getting something useful out of it. Go figure. And then I catch myself looking forward to tests to see how well I learned the material. Also a complete oddity in most academia.
"If we knew what we were doing, it wouldn't be called research!" -Einstein
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Re: guns?

Postby Mikado14 » Thu Feb 22, 2007 3:12 am

Gewis wrote:I keep myself under the gun. My classes are such that there is a connection between doing homework and getting something useful out of it. Go figure. And then I catch myself looking forward to tests to see how well I learned the material. Also a complete oddity in most academia.


There is hope with this new generation.

I admire what you said very much.

Mikado
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me too

Postby Victoria Steele » Thu Feb 22, 2007 9:32 am

Ditto that from Mikado Gewish. Proud to know you. As he said .... Hope in the Future. i have been doing some studying but its too late to get into it now and I guess that Paul is going to leave us hanging for a bit and darned I thought when I saw that post that the new chapter was up. And what the heck does a token have anything to do with things? Darn! Victoria
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