lifters in a vacuum

For a discussion of the science of Townsend Brown, his experiments and his ideas.

Postby ETernalightwithin » Fri Feb 16, 2007 8:24 pm

There are a lot of them out there, Anyone of them you'd recommend?

ETlight

Chris Knight wrote:That leads to a discussion of field-shaping. I'd have to suggest a book on electrostatics from a university library. The shape of an electrode is indelibly linked to the field shape - cone, rod, toroid, sphere, etc.
ETernalightwithin
Space Cadet
 
Posts: 69
Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2006 4:14 am

Postby Chris Knight » Fri Feb 16, 2007 9:36 pm

Ouch, can't think of one off-hand. Too many books around. Just take a slow walk down the aisles and see what jumps out at you.
Andrew
Qualight Environmental
(http://www.qualight.com, http://www.qualightenv.com, http://www.qualightscp.com)

"If you think the situation is under control, then you don't truly understand the situation."
Chris Knight
Keeper of the Flame
 
Posts: 465
Joined: Sat Aug 02, 2003 5:35 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA

Re: drawings in the sand

Postby Paul S. » Fri Feb 16, 2007 10:55 pm

twigsnapper wrote: I know of one in particular who shares sand and songs with your Mr. Buffet. Watch for him in the future.


Good, I really do need to find something constructive to do with all these guitars....

Watch Dr. Browns path very carefully. When he is powering up, another is saying " I have seen all I needed to see" and is shutting down.

Paul, this is not a puzzle for you. You already know the answer to this one.


I'm right with you on that one...

--PS
Paul Schatzkin
aka "The Perfesser"
"At some point we have to deal with the facts, not what we want to believe is true." -- Jack Bauer
Paul S.
Sr. Rabbit Chaser
 
Posts: 1362
Joined: Thu Mar 17, 2005 1:11 pm
Location: Psych Ward

Postby Gewis » Sat Feb 17, 2007 2:02 am

Chris Knight wrote:That leads to a discussion of field-shaping. I'd have to suggest a book on electrostatics from a university library. The shape of an electrode is indelibly linked to the field shape - cone, rod, toroid, sphere, etc.


Yes, I'm well aware. The question was how you change the field in-flight if the surface of your disc is conductive. A conductive surface distributes charge fairly evenly over the surface (though charge density alters in regions of high surface curvature). My point is that you cannot alter the shape of the surface in mid-flight, consequently you cannot change the shape of the field in mid-flight, though you can reduce or increase its gradient with variations in applied voltage.

So here is my question. With such a field, how do you do x and y axis movement instead of just z-axis? I.e. How do you change direction? That's why I asked the question about the composition of the disc. If the surface is not of uniform composition then you can have metal parts here and insulating parts there and you can have preferred direction of flight because you can change the directions of the electric field gradients. Is that what is going on? If not, and the surface is of uniform composition, what is the mechanism by which direction of travel is controlled?

I hope what I was trying to ask is clearer now.

EDIT: No, I don't think it was necessarily clearer, upon reading over again. Here's the link: disc shape does not change in flight. Thus field shape, based on the disc, will not change in flight. I hope that's the last of what I need.
"If we knew what we were doing, it wouldn't be called research!" -Einstein
Gewis
Junior Birdman
 
Posts: 126
Joined: Wed Feb 14, 2007 7:17 pm
Location: Utah

Postby ETernalightwithin » Sat Feb 17, 2007 2:55 am

nvm, I was wrong

Gewis wrote:
Chris Knight wrote:That leads to a discussion of field-shaping. I'd have to suggest a book on electrostatics from a university library. The shape of an electrode is indelibly linked to the field shape - cone, rod, toroid, sphere, etc.


Yes, I'm well aware. The question was how you change the field in-flight if the surface of your disc is conductive. A conductive surface distributes charge fairly evenly over the surface (though charge density alters in regions of high surface curvature). My point is that you cannot alter the shape of the surface in mid-flight, consequently you cannot change the shape of the field in mid-flight, though you can reduce or increase its gradient with variations in applied voltage.

So here is my question. With such a field, how do you do x and y axis movement instead of just z-axis? I.e. How do you change direction? That's why I asked the question about the composition of the disc. If the surface is not of uniform composition then you can have metal parts here and insulating parts there and you can have preferred direction of flight because you can change the directions of the electric field gradients. Is that what is going on? If not, and the surface is of uniform composition, what is the mechanism by which direction of travel is controlled?

I hope what I was trying to ask is clearer now.

EDIT: No, I don't think it was necessarily clearer, upon reading over again. Here's the link: disc shape does not change in flight. Thus field shape, based on the disc, will not change in flight. I hope that's the last of what I need.
Last edited by ETernalightwithin on Sat Feb 17, 2007 3:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
ETernalightwithin
Space Cadet
 
Posts: 69
Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2006 4:14 am

Postby Chris Knight » Sat Feb 17, 2007 4:50 am

Have you ever seen the plasma generators thet they sell at Spencer Gifts ? They come in various sized glass discs - 10" and 12", I think. There is a gradient from the center of the disc where the arc density is relatively high compared to the outer edge where is is relatively low.

If you can imagine applying that analogy to the tri-arcuate discs, while it's true that the shape of the disc may not be modified during flight, the field shape can be modified by altering not only the charge density on the canopy, but the location of the charge density.
Andrew
Qualight Environmental
(http://www.qualight.com, http://www.qualightenv.com, http://www.qualightscp.com)

"If you think the situation is under control, then you don't truly understand the situation."
Chris Knight
Keeper of the Flame
 
Posts: 465
Joined: Sat Aug 02, 2003 5:35 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA

Postby Gewis » Sat Feb 17, 2007 4:59 am

Chris Knight wrote:Have you ever seen the plasma generators thet they sell at Spencer Gifts ? They come in various sized glass discs - 10" and 12", I think. There is a gradient from the center of the disc where the arc density is relatively high compared to the outer edge where is is relatively low.

If you can imagine applying that analogy to the tri-arcuate discs, while it's true that the shape of the disc may not be modified during flight, the field shape can be modified by altering not only the charge density on the canopy, but the location of the charge density.


:shock:

Then the canopy isn't a conductive surface? A glass disc can have increased charge density in the center because it's a dielectric/insulator. Charge really likes to distribute itself as evenly as possible on conductive surfaces.

I think, though, that this answers my question. Thank you. Which, of course, leads to another question. I'm full of them.

Is the condenser a multi-layered dielectric rather than two conductors separated by a dielectric? You'd have to have multiple cathodes to apply voltage to various parts of the outside layer, but then you'd have field control exactly as you just described. Pictures I've seen of the discs appeared to be a metal, though the conductivity of aluminum is fairly low.

And that brings back my other question. What is the disc material composition?
"If we knew what we were doing, it wouldn't be called research!" -Einstein
Gewis
Junior Birdman
 
Posts: 126
Joined: Wed Feb 14, 2007 7:17 pm
Location: Utah

Postby ETernalightwithin » Sat Feb 17, 2007 5:10 am

Does charge density increase at the middle of each "arc". hence you could change field at the arcs. tri-arculate, tri-directional.

Chris Knight wrote:Have you ever seen the plasma generators thet they sell at Spencer Gifts ? They come in various sized glass discs - 10" and 12", I think. There is a gradient from the center of the disc where the arc density is relatively high compared to the outer edge where is is relatively low.

If you can imagine applying that analogy to the tri-arcuate discs, while it's true that the shape of the disc may not be modified during flight, the field shape can be modified by altering not only the charge density on the canopy, but the location of the charge density.
ETernalightwithin
Space Cadet
 
Posts: 69
Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2006 4:14 am

Postby Gewis » Sat Feb 17, 2007 5:17 am

"The saucer's edge would contain a number of conductor segments, and the saucer would turn in any direction simply by shifting the positive and negative charges to appropriate positions along its edge.

"The vertical thrust would be regulated by varying the charge on top of the saucer, the amount of thrust being regulated by the amount of charge generated."

http://www.qualight.com/stress/rose.htm

K, so the idea suggested for directional control was right. Multiple radially symmetric conductors/cathodes placed around the outside of the surface to control voltage application and therefore field shape. We still maintain primary conductive surfaces at the top and bottom to counter-balance the earth's gravitational field. Then the rest of the make-up can be dielectric and power supply.
"If we knew what we were doing, it wouldn't be called research!" -Einstein
Gewis
Junior Birdman
 
Posts: 126
Joined: Wed Feb 14, 2007 7:17 pm
Location: Utah

Postby Chris Knight » Sat Feb 17, 2007 5:49 am

No, it doesn't follow that the canopy is not a conductive surface. The Spencer discs have a conducting path (look like little spheres or something) with the upper and lower insulating glass plates. The idea is the same as the ball plasma generators, but squashed flat. It's been partially evacuated and filled with another gas.

You are correct in that:

Charge really likes to distribute itself as evenly as possible on conductive surfaces.


And they will - in a static situation such as the distribution of charge on the ball of a Van de Graff generator. However, you're dealing several differences - the most obvious difference is that you are not dealing with a static situation. Not only are you dealing with the modification of the location and value of charge densities, but also the asymmetric nature of the configuration of the disc.

I would consider that various materials have various electrical conductivities.
Andrew
Qualight Environmental
(http://www.qualight.com, http://www.qualightenv.com, http://www.qualightscp.com)

"If you think the situation is under control, then you don't truly understand the situation."
Chris Knight
Keeper of the Flame
 
Posts: 465
Joined: Sat Aug 02, 2003 5:35 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA

Postby Gewis » Sun Feb 18, 2007 3:09 am

Gewis wrote:And that brings back my other question. What is the disc material composition?


Andrew,

Thank you for taking the time to respond. I know that what seems to be my lack of understanding must be frustrating. I can assure you, however, that I do understand. Please view my personal introduction so that we can avoid further recommendations of introductory electrostatics or considerations of the fact that materials do have different conductivities (the latter I had already brought up).

I have two questions. Please, if you can answer specifically, it will save me a lot of work further down the road.

1. Is the tri-arcuate disc Brown made of uniform surface material composition?

2. What specifically are those material(s)?
"If we knew what we were doing, it wouldn't be called research!" -Einstein
Gewis
Junior Birdman
 
Posts: 126
Joined: Wed Feb 14, 2007 7:17 pm
Location: Utah

Postby Gewis » Sun Feb 18, 2007 3:27 am

ETernalightwithin wrote:There are a lot of them out there, Anyone of them you'd recommend?

ETlight


I would recommend Serway and Beichner's Physics for Scientists and Engineers. It either comes in a large hard-cover book or broken into several volumes soft-cover. If you get the soft-cover, look for Volume 2. This is a standard text for introductory E&M courses. (When I say introductory, I don't mean it isn't good, deep stuff.) Chapters are Electric Fields, Gauss's Law, Electric Potential, Capacitance and Dielectrics, Current and Resistance, Direct Current Circuits, Magnetic Fields, Magnetic Field Sources, Faraday's Law, Inductance, Alternating Current Circuits, and Electromagnetic Waves.

If you can follow that book and work the problems (Calculus 1 and 2 are prerequisites), then you should have a solid working knowledge of the principles here.

EDIT: I mean you can have a working knowledge of the behavior of electricity. The interaction of that with gravity isn't something covered anywhere. :)
"If we knew what we were doing, it wouldn't be called research!" -Einstein
Gewis
Junior Birdman
 
Posts: 126
Joined: Wed Feb 14, 2007 7:17 pm
Location: Utah

which is why

Postby Elizabeth Helen Drake » Sun Feb 18, 2007 4:49 am

Gewish,

The fact that it isn't written anywhere is one of the main reasons I certainly hope that your path will take you to the act of writing those pages.

Each one of us individually can do amazing things! We all have gifts. Perhaps you are meant to write some of those much needed papers on the link between electricty and gravity? I know that the thought has crossed your mind ........ Elizabeth
Elizabeth Helen Drake
Sr. Research Asst.
 
Posts: 1740
Joined: Fri Sep 23, 2005 6:11 am

Postby ETernalightwithin » Sun Feb 18, 2007 5:05 am

Sounds juicy! I always did like my prime rib thick.

Gewis wrote:
ETernalightwithin wrote:There are a lot of them out there, Anyone of them you'd recommend?

ETlight


I would recommend Serway and Beichner's Physics for Scientists and Engineers. It either comes in a large hard-cover book or broken into several volumes soft-cover. If you get the soft-cover, look for Volume 2. This is a standard text for introductory E&M courses. (When I say introductory, I don't mean it isn't good, deep stuff.) Chapters are Electric Fields, Gauss's Law, Electric Potential, Capacitance and Dielectrics, Current and Resistance, Direct Current Circuits, Magnetic Fields, Magnetic Field Sources, Faraday's Law, Inductance, Alternating Current Circuits, and Electromagnetic Waves.

If you can follow that book and work the problems (Calculus 1 and 2 are prerequisites), then you should have a solid working knowledge of the principles here.

EDIT: I mean you can have a working knowledge of the behavior of electricity. The interaction of that with gravity isn't something covered anywhere. :)
ETernalightwithin
Space Cadet
 
Posts: 69
Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2006 4:14 am

Postby Chris Knight » Sun Feb 18, 2007 5:31 am

Gewis,

I don't get frustrated with honest questions. I apologize if I talked below your level - no disrespect intended, but I'm sure you saw that. It's easy to miss posts because this forum can be so active.

To answer your first question - generally, yes.

The answer to the second question is, "the answer would be of no value to you, because you would not have gained an understanding of the foundation of that knowledge." May seem high-handed at first glance, but if you think about it, you'll see it makes sense. My advice would be to start with something inexpensive like spun Al and then perhaps move on to stainless steel for the canopy. See where that leads.
Andrew
Qualight Environmental
(http://www.qualight.com, http://www.qualightenv.com, http://www.qualightscp.com)

"If you think the situation is under control, then you don't truly understand the situation."
Chris Knight
Keeper of the Flame
 
Posts: 465
Joined: Sat Aug 02, 2003 5:35 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA

PreviousNext

Return to The Science of Townsend Brown

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

cron