Good questions from Gregg Vizza

For a discussion of the science of Townsend Brown, his experiments and his ideas.

Good questions from Gregg Vizza

Postby Paul S. » Fri Jun 16, 2006 10:03 pm

In the Chapter 38 section, Gregg Vizza has posed some questions that speak directly to what we're discussing here. In this post,

http://forum.ttbrown.com/viewtopic.php?p=1650#1650

Gregg writes:

greggvizza wrote: he may have been so focused on making it work that he overlooked the fact that the signal does not propagate like electromagnetic waves, it is everywhere at the same time, instantly at the ends of the universe, it doesn’t have to travel.


Gregg, what is the basis of that assertion? Are you not sayng that 'gravity exceeds light-speed" ?

There is some debate about that in scientific circles. Again, I'm thinking of Brian Green, who goes into some depth on the subject in "The Fabric of the Cosmos."

He makes this case: if you're in a rowboat at high tide, at night, and the full moon was suddenly snatched out of the sky, would the tide suddenly settle (intantaneous effect) some time before you saw the light from the moon disappear? Would you feel the "gravitational" effect before you saw the "optical effect"?

I don't remember the reasoning now (but I'll look it up if you'd like) but Green says that both effects would reach you at the same time, i.e. gravity effects would also travel at the speed of light.

Can you tell me what allows you to conclude otherwise?

I'm not disputing your conclusion, I just want to make sure I can follow your logical reasoning to it. We need to make sure the wagon is sturdy, because we want to get alot of people on board.

--PS
Paul Schatzkin
aka "The Perfesser"
"At some point we have to deal with the facts, not what we want to believe is true." -- Jack Bauer
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Thanks for promting me to research

Postby greggvizza » Sat Jun 17, 2006 4:30 pm

Your comment prompted me to do some research on the subject and I found everything from the speed of gravity equals the speed of light, to the speed of gravity is infinite. I apologize for stating that as a fact.

I had previously read some of the reseach articles by Tom Van Flandern Ph.D who states: “The most severe limits are set by the binary pulsars, indicating that gravity must propagate at no less than 20 billion times the speed of light.â€
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limited knowledge

Postby Mark Culpepper » Sat Jun 17, 2006 4:46 pm

Greg,

Interesting thoughts.

I wish that I were a scientist. I am sure there are many out there who will respond with challenging and informative information.

Thats what Paul is counting on I am sure , so that he can go forward better prepared. I just look at it with a certain horsesense attitude that I get from my daughter. We were talking about the speed of gravity and the speed of light, how we knew the speed of one but not the other. Her observation is that you never REALLY know how fast or how capable a horse is until you ask it to do something. Armed with that little bit of Lisas horsesense I looked back on our discussion and realized that this is all just talk, that nobody out there REALLY knows the speed of gravity, because they have never understood it enough to even ask it to perform for them. Except, and I say this tentatively and with all those weasle words Paul hates so much, attached ... except perhaps Dr. Brown.

I don't know about you but some 20 billion times faster than light .... for my purposes of discussion, would qualify as "instantaneous"

More good stuff, thanks Greg

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Speed of Gravity

Postby Mikado14 » Mon Aug 14, 2006 2:03 am

This is my first post in this forum since I felt a need to throw something into the pond here. I realize that this thread has not been posted to for almost 2 months but here goes.

It is noted that the EFFECT of electricity is at the speed of light, however, the actual speed of an electron is much slower, a car could drive faster. For illustration, imagine a cardboard tube as you would find from a roll of paper towels but lets make it 5 feet long. If you fill the tube with ping pong balls, which happen to be all white, and you take a blue one and push it in one end the result is that immediately a ball is emitted from the other end but the blue one is still in the tube. Conclusion, the EFFECT is immediate but the FLOW (actual) is slower. (This simile would be for either hole or electron flow, take your pick).

The same principle could be said for gravity. It's EFFECT is immediate, for example, the effects of gravity upon celestrial bodies. If this is the case, look at the time it takes light to travel from the sun to the earth but the effect of gravity is, for all intents and purposes, immediate. Therefore, would not gravity or the component thereof be faster than light?

Now after reading the two previous paragraphs imagine if you will that you have a wire running from the earth to a moon base. Is the current flow in the wire faster than light or does it take almost 2 seconds to get to the moon? If the electron entering on earth causes an electron to leave the wire immediately than the effect is FASTER than light, if it doesn't than a compression is taking place in the wire which goes against established theory.

Now therefore we could go a step further but then that is another story.

This is just my humble opinion and is put out there for thought.
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Postby Chris Knight » Thu Aug 17, 2006 8:48 pm

Mikado,

Glad you jumped in, because you made an important observation, and one that most people don't ever think about. Most people assume that electricity (and electrons by association) move extremely fast.

As you pointed out, however, while the effects of the movement of electrons (electricity) the actual speed of the electrons themselves, called electron drift, is typically inches per hour in an average household circuit.

Bill Beaty, over at http://www.amasci.com has several very interesting articles on the nature of electricity and science in general. One article on electricity worth reading is at:
http://www.amasci.com/miscon/speed.html.

The rest of his articles on electricity are at: http://amasci.com/ele-edu.html

Andrew
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The Gravity of the Situation

Postby Mikado14 » Mon Nov 24, 2008 1:40 pm

Download night, thought this thread would be relevant.

So much talk of Gravity and what it is lately that I thought I would put this at the top again. It also happens to contain my very first post.

Simili's, sometimes the only way that us "humans" can see abstract thoughts. Using the written word on a forum or sitting at a table using a marble for an electron, it is all simili's.

Mikado
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Re: Good questions from Gregg Vizza

Postby arc » Mon Nov 24, 2008 9:04 pm

Muse; If we can see a remote star through a telescope and we have an accurate light-year measurement of its distance from us, and the star is seen to explode, how long till we "feel" the gravity wave hit us. Is it at the same time as the observable explosion or is the effect "felt" many years before the star is seen to explode?.

Were Dr Browns "listening rocks" picking up the tell-tale signature of the stars being sucked into the giant black hole at the centre of our galaxy, and pulled apart in the process thus causing massive gravity disruptions. As the galaxy continues its spiral into the hole in the middle the "signals" will continue to arrive in a continuous but sporadic manner. Therefore I would expect both a "push" signal and a "pull" signal as gravity itself was stretched and rebounds as the stars are torn apart.

If an atom is made of core material that itself is made of quantum material "aether" then by definition the small "aether pieces" themselves also vibrate and move, as such there must be a definitive time taken for an effect to propagate through the quantum medium such that even gravity will have a definitive limit velocity, but is the limit the same as light?. My understanding of light is that it is basically a packet of energy "photon" that "propagates" across the medium we call space, it uses the carrier service of the aether to propagate, BUT gravity is a different kind of energy, more of an electrostatic attraction than a photon packet, so imho it will have a different propagation velocity, as Mikado has already said if you physically connect two remote objects with a wire then the flow will be almost instant, if space is electrostatic then disrupting it in one place will cause ripples to spread outwards, but at what speed?.
arc
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Re: Good questions from Gregg Vizza

Postby skyfish » Mon Nov 24, 2008 10:11 pm

ARC wrote:

If an atom is made of core material that itself is made of quantum material "aether" then by definition the small "aether pieces" themselves also vibrate and move,

I posted this link earlier. It is significant. Matter IS quantum vacuum fluctuations.

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn1 ... tions.html

Light is relativistic, but in the quantum vacuum, the aether, relativity does not apply.
This is best demonstrated by recent entanglement test:

http://www.sciam.com/blog/60-second-sci ... 2008-08-13

10,000 time the speed of light. You can go places at that rate!

Dr. Brown was interacting with the quantum vacuum, the aether.

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Re: Good questions from Gregg Vizza

Postby arc » Tue Nov 25, 2008 1:35 am

skyfish
I just read the sciam article, that is indeed interesting
I do not believe our destiny lays beneath our feet... it lays beneath the stars
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Re: Good questions from Gregg Vizza

Postby skyfish » Tue Nov 25, 2008 1:41 am

ARC,
The paradigm shift is happening as we type!
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Re: Good questions from Gregg Vizza

Postby Mikado14 » Tue Nov 25, 2008 3:09 am

arc wrote:Muse; If we can see a remote star through a telescope and we have an accurate light-year measurement of its distance from us, and the star is seen to explode, how long till we "feel" the gravity wave hit us. Is it at the same time as the observable explosion or is the effect "felt" many years before the star is seen to explode?.

Were Dr Browns "listening rocks" picking up the tell-tale signature of the stars being sucked into the giant black hole at the centre of our galaxy, and pulled apart in the process thus causing massive gravity disruptions. As the galaxy continues its spiral into the hole in the middle the "signals" will continue to arrive in a continuous but sporadic manner. Therefore I would expect both a "push" signal and a "pull" signal as gravity itself was stretched and rebounds as the stars are torn apart.

If an atom is made of core material that itself is made of quantum material "aether" then by definition the small "aether pieces" themselves also vibrate and move, as such there must be a definitive time taken for an effect to propagate through the quantum medium such that even gravity will have a definitive limit velocity, but is the limit the same as light?. My understanding of light is that it is basically a packet of energy "photon" that "propagates" across the medium we call space, it uses the carrier service of the aether to propagate, BUT gravity is a different kind of energy, more of an electrostatic attraction than a photon packet, so imho it will have a different propagation velocity, as Mikado has already said if you physically connect two remote objects with a wire then the flow will be almost instant, if space is electrostatic then disrupting it in one place will cause ripples to spread outwards, but at what speed?.
arc


You know something Mr. arc, there are times that the forum reminds me of an AM radio. There are times it can be exasperating to try and find a clear station. There is much confusion in relativistic and non-relativistic but perhaps if one truly looks at force equations one can see that there is no difference, it is just perspective, regardless of what words you wish to call it. However, mostly opinion but some fact from personal proof. Perhaps a part of a "paradigm shift" is to shut the hell up and do something. Again, mostly my opinion.


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Re: Good questions from Gregg Vizza

Postby skyfish » Tue Nov 25, 2008 3:42 am

Hi ARC,

You wrote:
quantum medium such that even gravity will have a definitive limit velocity, but is the limit the same as light?.

Light, being a part of the em spectrum is a manifest quality of the aether, thereby stuck in relativism, and
limited to the speed of light.
Since gravity, the zpf, is the force of the quantum vacuum, the aether, it is not limited to the speed of light.
That pre-particle medium can be considered the medium in which quantum entanglement communications
take place, and that is much fater than the speed of light. I also consider it the energy as manifest by the
dimension of time, and that is why we are in a forum talking about time travel.

As for building something...
Mikado, I am sure this is not your favorite lasagna recipe, but it is a novel
approach to a gravitator. Pretty simple stuff actually. I wonder if he
disappeared after he made this??? :shock:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pCWZnX3Q8_I

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Aluminum foil

Postby Mikado14 » Tue Nov 25, 2008 4:21 am

skyfish wrote:As for building something...
Mikado, I am sure this is not your favorite lasagna recipe, but it is a novel
approach to a gravitator. Pretty simple stuff actually. I wonder if he
disappeared after he made this??? :shock:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pCWZnX3Q8_I

skyfish


Pretty simple? What you have linked to is a joke. Aluminum foil and paper. If anyone believes that what is on that you tube to be a gravitor then they have no understanding of the aether and it's relationship to matter. That is NOT Dr. Brown's gravitor by any shape or form of the imagination. Using the word "gravitor" for what is shown in that video would be similar to calling a match a heater. To refer to it as a novel approach implies that you must know how to construct a true gravitor. Care to share?

Mikado
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy
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Re: Good questions from Gregg Vizza

Postby Radomir » Tue Nov 25, 2008 4:36 am

arc wrote:
...if space is electrostatic then disrupting it in one place will cause ripples to spread outwards, but at what speed?.


I don't think we here can do more than ask the questions, but I do think you've put your finger on something important--when you said "electrostatic" I thought of the plasma currents that the Plasma Universe camp of astrophysicists talk about. If you have these polarity-gradient conduits intertwining throughout the universe, perhaps they make up the "wires" of the "nervous system" TTB evoked, and the electrogravitational effects travel through them (ARE them) at--whatever speed it is when one ping pong ball pops out the other end, as in the previous metaphor above. Effectively instantaneous, to our perception, anyway, even if at a longer actual distance there may be distortions, speed differences in different sectors of the universe depending on the total amount of "signal traffic" or flowthrough in a given region. Capacitance "gaps" in relatively "empty" regions or high-flowing glowing plasma clouds. Any of which may create "static," decreasing speed or intensity of the gravitational "signal" or may be additive, who knows.

Musing, as you directed.

R.
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Re: Good questions from Gregg Vizza

Postby twigsnapper » Tue Nov 25, 2008 10:05 am

Nice to see these important discussions. And some wonder why Paul may need at least another complete chapter. Ah, I believe probably more of a book , just to cover these considerations.

And nice to see you Radomir.

Skyfish, I admire your energy level. Wish that I could borrow some of it! Interesting observations. twigsnapper
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