PEOPLE & PLACES & DATES

Here is where we focus on separating the facts from the fiction, identifying what we KNOW from what what we DON'T KNOW about the life and work of Townsend Brown

Re: PEOPLE & PLACES & DATES

Postby Linda Brown » Fri Aug 08, 2008 8:11 pm

Rose,

"In case people are wondering why I place much reliance on Elsey,. here is some background: He was a Commander in the U.S. Naval Reserve and the duty officer at the White House map room from 1941 until 1946, that is the entire 2nd World War. He was assistant to the Special Counsel to the President (Clark Clifford) 1947-1949; Administrative Assistant to the President 1949-1951 and assistant to the Director, Mutual Security Agency 1951-1953.

Yes, the same man who engineered to layover trip to Hawaii. Made arrangements for the President to tour a certain maintenence hangar on a pleasant Sunday... made sure also that the entire press corps was focused on discussions with a General who had chosen not to shake a Presidents hand.
A masterful piece of smokescreen that has held up all of these years.

More comments when I get to read your link more carefully.

I thought that you would appreciate a sight that greeted me the other day. A monk walking down the sandy road ... all alone .. with his parasol to protect him from the sun! Orange robes flowing. You, I am sure, probably already know him but I recognized him from several years ago when we shared a dryer and had a pleasant conversation about keeping the "mirror on our chests" clean and free from everyday dirt. I have to tell you I had to stifle an urge to rip my shoes off and join him again. What blessings come our way. Linda
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Re: PEOPLE & PLACES & DATES

Postby Rose » Sat Aug 09, 2008 5:16 am

Resist the urge! We need you here, now!

The link below will not really add much to the TTB story we have pieced together so far...it's an analysis of the rise and fall of the NRO, expressing the CIA author's disgust with the latest organizational approach. I'm merely sharing the link in case anyone else likes looking at the evolution of intelligence gathering organizatons since WW II.

https://www.cia.gov/library/center-for- ... i2a02p.htm

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Re: PEOPLE & PLACES & DATES

Postby Linda Brown » Sat Aug 09, 2008 1:03 pm

Rose,

Would that I could rip my shoes off. Having to be civilized now, which you probably know with me only halfway works.

Saturday schedule remains the same. No Marine flags this time, just bits and pieces of " stuff". Not even my " stuff" either.
Reminds me of George Carlin. Houses are just roofs over piles of " stuff" but I still like browsing through.

You are right ,I think, about the negative aspects of organizations like the NRO. Morgan did tell me that he had spent a good bit of time " pounding polished hallways with his "hair on fire" in the months before 911 but apparently could not get anyone to respond. I remembered that phrase with fondness and he recognized the irony because he had very little hair to speak of at the time. But can you imagine how frustrating it might be to be in a situation where you KNOW something is going to happen but you can't get others to respond.

One of the exchanges which passed between us when we were first reunited (at Shadtrees corral, after so many years). I finally said (sort of ruefully, thinking of my slender 18 year old body of our past together) " Oh! I am so much heavier now!" He responded with a twinkle that I will always love .... " and I used to have hair"

Linda
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Re: PEOPLE & PLACES & DATES

Postby Linda Brown » Sat Aug 09, 2008 1:27 pm

And Rose,

Thank you so much for that link on the NRO/CIA relationship. Rare to find that kind of paperwork.

I especially appreciated this section! Talk about irony! And frustration!

"The Fuhrman Panel recommendations led to the abolition of Programs A/B/C and started the real downturn of the NRO. Apparently to show the true integration of the programs, NRO management adopted the principle that anybody could run anything, regardless of skill, background, or experience. People were shuffled around so that any semblance of loyalty to their parent organizations was lost; career planning fell by the wayside; and experience as a criterion in the position assignment process was discarded. Navy admirals who once were directly tied to NRO support of the tactical Navy mission now have jobs of no particular interest to the Navy. CIA SIS officers who once viewed themselves as intelligence professionals and saw their job as supporting the NRO from inside CIA, now feel disconnected from and unsupported by CIA. Air Force generals who once were leaders in Air Force space technology are now sent with no particular requirement that they be "space cadets" or understand the mission of the NRO. In the past, the leaders of Programs A/B/C were people who had spent years in the business, having come up through the ranks. Now they no longer need that kind of experience to be senior officers in the NRO. The CIA no longer sees development of future civilian leaders in this business as its responsibility. The current crop of experienced SIS officers at the NRO is retiring and no replacements with comparable talent and dedication are being actively developed.

NRO ADOPTED THE POLICY THAT ANYONE COULD RUN ANYTHING. Thats pretty choice/

Morgan confided to me that the saying at one time was ... " We are going to lunch ... let us know who the boss is when we get back" so that sort of fits with this "regardless of skill, background, or experience. People were shuffled around so that any semblance of loyalty to their parent organizations was lost; career planning fell by the wayside; and experience as a criterion in the position assignment process was discarded.

"The current crop of experienced SIS officers at the NRO is retiring and no replacements with comparable talent and dedication are being actively developed" Paul ...... does that statement seem familiar? Would the Caroline Group, absent Morgan, be in that kind of situation also?

Thanks again Rose for this insight into organizations that usually are not talked about at all. We forget sometimes that the passage of time changes situations and the ground under your feet does not always stay solid. Linda
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Dazed and Confused

Postby Rose » Sat Aug 09, 2008 5:08 pm

I thought I posted some quotes from former Spy types who were the lecturers on a Carribean cruise, but I can't find them now. If you've seen them, could you point me toward the thread they are in? I'm looking for the link.

Thanks,
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Re: PEOPLE & PLACES & DATES

Postby Rose » Sat Aug 09, 2008 5:26 pm

And Linda, I'm glad you "enjoyed" (I'm not sure that's exactly the right word) the article.

The current NRO site makes it apparent that they have been and are in the midst of making significant organizational changes,...but after reading this article, I'm not sure they are for the better.

In simplistic terms, it appears to me that the furor started because the USAF lost too many battles for control of Satellite programs and budgets. I'm surprised, however, that their nemesis was the CIA. Given the ship on the NRO patch, I would have guessed their chief opponent to be the US Navy.



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Re: PEOPLE & PLACES & DATES

Postby Mark Culpepper » Sat Aug 09, 2008 5:43 pm

When was this Rose? I have been watching your posts pretty carefully and I think I would have noticed that comment! Spys Lecture on Cruise ship. Where do I sign up? I want to be in on that one! They always say ( I understand) that the deal is to go somewhere warm, but I never thought of having the cruise lines exchange tickets for a few comments! Anyway when you find those posts please make sure we all see them!!!

You asked I think why I originally got interested in this story. Actually a couple of things happened. I may have mentioned that some of my family members have been involved in a career in intelligence gathering. My father certainly and my brother is just now retiring out from the CIA. Couldn't talk too much about that in the last couple of years but he seems a bit more relaxed in that direction now. He is the one who was so interested in the history of the " Adamski shaped saucer" remember. When we were kids he used to have pictures of that scout ship plastered on his walls. I guess he was an early UFO fanatic. He collected those NICAP papers too and used to go out into the countryside in hopes of seeing " something". Well that early interest sort of rubbed off eventually and started me looking at Pauls site.

I probably would have never said anything except for one of the first things that Paul wrote regarding Linda. He said that she had gone to some 48 different schools. Now where my brother has been slugging it out at Langley I have been a school teacher here in northern Virginia. I see some of those " army brats". They come, they go.... most of them are pretty well adjusted to things.... look at things in " tours" almost. But most of them are good for at least a year in one spot. Linda ( if she spent the last two years at Great Valley) then must have averaged ALMOST five moves a year for the other ten..... Imagine that if you can. Checking in and out of various schools..but almost five each year????.. we moved ALOT when I was a kid and without too much in the way of explanations ...until my Mom said "no way, no more! and we stopped in place. But never really saw Dad again. So I know what it is to be the "new kid". My brother turned into the social, love'em and leave'em personality and I headed for the library because it had friends there which I recognized ... good books. The scene of Morgan and Linda in the library and noticing each other for the first time was what cemented my relationship here on the forum. Its going to be a great book and I can't wait for my copy.

Eventually. Did I explain myself well enough?

So when Linda just recently mentioned that house in Chantilly and the idea that she could stay there until she graduated and that Jospehine wouldn't have to move again...... well I understood that dream. How I can sense the tears too when that dream went poof. MarkC
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Re: PEOPLE & PLACES & DATES

Postby Rose » Sat Aug 09, 2008 5:50 pm

Thanks, Mark. That explains a lot.

I was a pipeliner's kid, so I know about moving and moving again, but Linda holds the all time record. Books became my best friend, too.

I see Paul has put the messages up now under Second Draft, but I found lots of links just a minute ago when I googled for it. Try SpyCruse.
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Re: PEOPLE & PLACES & DATES

Postby htmagic » Mon Aug 11, 2008 4:17 pm

I just downloaded a report that describes the First 50 years of Radar.
Since we know that Dr. Brown was involved in radar, especially over-the-horizon (OTH) radar, this may be worth a look.
http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/iel5/5/31346/01457400.pdf?isnumber=31346&prod=JNL&arnumber=1457400&arSt=+182&ared=+197&arAuthor=Skolnik%2C+M.I. wrote:At the Naval Research Laboratory in Washington, DC, A. Hoyt Taylor, L. C. Young, and Robert Page had just completed tests of a 60-MHz pulse radar that detected aircraft in December 1934 (but not with complete success since the receiver was narrow-band and caused stretching of the echo.


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Re: PEOPLE & PLACES & DATES

Postby Rose » Mon Aug 11, 2008 6:06 pm

Thanks, Bill. Somewhere along the way I found a history talked about the accidental discovery at of radar NRL, when an airplane interrupted a radio transmission across an airfield. The things we are learning in this quest!

OTH was dependent upon a moon bounce for a while. The moon bounce was super secret technology in it's time and although (or because) its signal was described as a "million billion" times weaker than that received directly,a demonstration of it was used to justify the new satellite program.

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Re: PEOPLE & PLACES & DATES

Postby twigsnapper » Mon Aug 11, 2008 8:02 pm

Well, lets not completely forget the English Admiraltys contribution to radar while we are at it <g>

And while we are thinking of bouncing things off of the moon you might also consider what was bouncing from where. Generally it was from a periscope and to somewhere else, and back. twigsnapper
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Re: PEOPLE & PLACES & DATES

Postby Rose » Mon Aug 11, 2008 8:50 pm

good to see you, Mr. T.

I've heard the English contributed a thing or two...,<g>
It has been reported that the Washington unveiling of their magnetosphere was cause for great jubilation and rejoicing!

Would those early periscopes have been bouncing things off the AVRO Shackleton?

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Passing the Torch

Postby Paul S. » Mon Aug 11, 2008 10:34 pm

Linda Brown wrote: "The current crop of experienced SIS officers at the NRO is retiring and no replacements with comparable talent and dedication are being actively developed" Paul ...... does that statement seem familiar? Would the Caroline Group, absent Morgan, be in that kind of situation also?


Yes, it certainly does sound familiar. The sense that I got from Morgan -- though of course he never specifically said so -- was that Dr. Brown inherited the mantle of "Caroline" leadership from Sir William Stephenson, and then passed it on to Morgan. And he lamented more than once that there was no one coming up behind him to pass the torch to.

Take all of that with a grain of salt, as it is conjecture based on speculation based on rumination. I wish I had more precise insight into what "The Caroline Group" really means. That would give me a better sense of what more might have been lost in Morgan's demise.

--PS
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Follow The Bouncing Diode?

Postby Paul S. » Mon Aug 11, 2008 10:41 pm

twigsnapper wrote:And while we are thinking of bouncing things off of the moon you might also consider what was bouncing from where. Generally it was from a periscope and to somewhere else, and back. twigsnapper


Ya don't say.

And that periscope... would it have had a specially configured "tunnel diode" type of thing attached to it?

The "diode on a periscope" part comes from Reid Mayo courtesy James Bamford; the "specially configured" part paraphrases Morgan.

Do they add up ?

--PS
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Re: PEOPLE & PLACES & DATES

Postby htmagic » Mon Aug 11, 2008 11:09 pm

Paul,

The tunnel diode would be attached to an antenna. Now was the antenna on top of the periscope or embedded in the glass? I got the impression that it was embedded in the lens itself. Can someone clarify this?

If it was embedded in the lens, was it actually an antenna? Or did it use lasers or light for communication? I thought it was electromagnetic frequencies it was transmitting. But if it was on the periscope, it almost sounds optical in nature.

I looked up lasers as I remember they were invented in the early 1960s. I got this from Wikipedia:
Wikipedia wrote:The first working laser was demonstrated on May 16, 1960 by Theodore Maiman at Hughes Research Laboratories.


Now Hughes Research Laboratories (HRL) developed the first laser and later that year, the first gas laser was developed:
Wikipedia wrote:Later in 1960 the Iranian physicist Ali Javan, working with William R. Bennett and Donald Herriot, made the first gas laser using helium and neon.


So at least the helium neon (HeNe) lasers were continuous and not pulsed as the first ruby laser. If optical, I suppose Dr. Brown could have gone down these lines. Considering the electrogravitic communications Dr. Brown outlines in Notebook #1 is his photoisotope cells, it may be optical in nature. Dr. Brown says:
Hence, if an antenna (of an electro-gravitic radio transmitter) is electrically or photo-isotopically modulated, it will tend to vibrate mechanically in the alignment of its absolute motion.


I'm afraid I'm not sure what Dr. Brown means by the term "photoisotope". Breaking it down, "photo" means of or relate to light and images. "Isotope" is any of two or more species of atoms of a chemical element with the same atomic number and nearly identical chemical behavior but with differing atomic mass or mass number and different physical properties. So I guess this means photoisotopic material emits light at a specific frequency?

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