THINKING OUTSIDE of the BOX

[Elizabeth Helen Drake]

You got me. That was the simplest observation! I got caught up in the mirror.

But back to my cowboys. In every accounting office in the world. You set this scenario up ...... with an agent taking a "fee" and something very strange happens.

No, the manager didn't pocket it! He gave the clerk five crisp dollar bills .(remember the cowboys had paid 30.. for the room, five dollars too much. The clerk carried those five to the cowboys. They said he could keep two ... which he did, as his tip. That leaves them three dollars. Each cowboy got a dollar back. (All the money is accounted for. two dollars walking down the hall with the clerk and ... three in the cowboys hands.) The five dollars is actually there physically! But what happens with the math?

Remember the clerk has his two. The cowboys had paid 30.00 remember.
So when each cowboy deducted the dollar he was given he figured that he paid 9.00. Three times nine is twenty-seven....... the clerk has two.

Add that up. It totals twenty-nine. Where is the dollar?

That is what you call an anomaly and I am still waiting for Trickfox to explain it. <g> Elizabeth

[kevin.b]

Taken from the gravitycontrol forum thanks to brocke.
A eureka moment, things are speeding up.
scroll down and click on the ancient worlds .1
http://www.coralcastlecode.com/id54.html
have a good look around this out of the box site, I recognise so much.
Kevin

[Paul S.]

We each got a dollar back. Which means that we each paid 9.00 for the room , instead of ten.

That's the trick, right there.

They did not each pay $9.00 for the room. The manager returned $5, so they each paid $8.33. They each got back $1.66, part of which they gave to the kid.

Well, two of them paid $8.33 and the other paid $8.34.

The real question is which one got stuck paying the extra penny? And what kind of black project can a penny build?

--PS

[wdavidb]

I have to say this, because it keeps coming up again and again.....

Other peoples work..........over the years I have worn books out to the point where there is nothing much left of them. I have packed these books around with me so I could spend every spare moment studying and reading the same material over and over again.

This idea that I either don't consider other peoples work as having any merit or importance is not a reasonable assumption, as how else would I have gotten to where I am now.

I don't have a genie in a bottle or an ET under my desk whispering the answers to me. It is from years and years of study and thoughtful consideration of other peoples contributions that I put forward the suggestions that I do today. And no, I don't have all the answers, not by a long shot.

But..................why on earth would I want to get past non-linear, is there something even further beyond non-linear that I am not familiar with, because I know that the linear concept is a concrete box.

My heroes are scientists, thinkers and healers, (and of course dowsers), but seriously, this stuff about my wishing to ignore things is getting a bit thick.

I may be a tad slow on the up-beat at times, but there is very little that I ignore in the long term. You see my life is not some big fluffy rose colored day dream, its down on the ground get your hands and face dirty stuff.

It seems almost weird to me to be talking like this, because as strange as it might sound my life is not about me........no I am not some self opinionated central character in a two bit play. It's about other people who have touched me and moved me in a manner I cannot truly convey in a second hand fashion.

I am the product of their strength and their pain. Their individual ability to endure and survive against all hope and all odds. So for me it is a great honor to have been allowed to be a part of it all and to have benefited from their faith and their trust in God to deliver them from the man made hell they were forced to endure for so many years. For both the living and the dead I am truly grateful that their lives should give meaning to my own.

So what is science all about? Should it not involve respect for our own humanity, respect for the human spirit to endure and for each and everyone of us to find peace in our hearts and minds. I certainly hope so.

Science is a process of learning, which does not cease, it continues for a life time and even then it is not complete. But along the way we find some true bits and pieces of knowledge which cannot be denied or ignored.

Whether anyone else might find the same bits and pieces of any use in their search is not as important as the act of discovery. To find that we are all connected by the very thoughts we believed our own is to realize that they are simply the thoughts we share.

[Elizabeth Helen Drake]

Paul! You are pulling my leg I am sure. You can't possibly b trying to tell me that those cowboys did not pay nine dollars for their room! You are doing what the quantum physicists do when things don't fit. You are trying to MAKE it fit. ITS NOT A TRICK QUESTION.

The cowboys paid 10.00 each. They each got a dollar back. Therefore .... (counting that they had given the clerk the tip of 2.00) .... They paid 9.00 each and the kid got two. The equation still stands. Twenty nine dollars. An anomaly. You can not push it into fractions or anything else. But you can't discount its truth either.

Both situations are correct. They contradict each other. But they are both correct. Does anyone see what I am trying to point out? Sometimes some situations do not play by our rules and there is no amount of "fudging or arranging on our part that will change that.

And I am still waiting Trickfox. in clear language that a dummy like me can understand, where did that dollar go? <g> Elizabeth

[Mikado14]

Three cowboys are travelling to a rodeo. They check into a motel after a hard days drive. The sign says $30.00 for a room so each of them digs into his jeans and comes up with ten dollars which they pool and give to the desk clerk. Later on that evening the manager comes along and notices that the room should have been 25.00, not 30.00 .... so he gives the clerk five single dollar bills and makes the suggestion that he could keep two dollars from the five if the cowboys said it was OK. Long walk to the room, special service etc. The cowboys thought getting a rebate was great and let the kid keep the 2.00 tip. ........ later one of the brighter cowboys got to thinking. Lets see he pondered. We each got a dollar back. Which means that we each paid 9.00 for the room , instead of ten. Three times nine ..... is .... twenty seven ..... the kid has his two dollar tip .....thats ..... twenty nine ......WHERE DID THE OTHER DOLLAR GO?

let's see. Your left hand is where? and you say your right is where?

The smart cowboy more than likely finished only to fifth grade. And he was the bright one, it's a wonder he doesn't blame the one who answered the door.

Pauls answer is correct for the simple fact is that the cowboys are not looking at the entire picture, they are only looking at the result of what is in their hands and are turning a blind eye to the full picture. It is a simple case in logic and not math for they failed to look at all the data. In my opinion, it is not math but observation of the facts.

As far as the Motel clerk is concerned, he received the sum of $25 which of course we already know is $8.33 each, not 9. The rebate was $1.66 app. to each. Two gave a tip of $.67 and one gave a tip of $.66 which totals the $2. The cowboys than had a dollar left from the rebate, here it is: $8.33 room, $1 rebate, .$67 or $.66 depending on the fraction and you have ten dollars, all funds are accounted per cowboy

In other words, the cowboy has poor math skills and poor reasoning skills and the observer is trapped into it.

In short, Paul is correct.

A very common mistake after falling off too many horses <g>

Mikado

[Elizabeth Helen Drake]

Trickfox,
YOU SAID
Yea ok..... You can go ahead and play with that illusionary argument if you want Elizabeth, but that won't work in "Binary" will it now? If that motel desk clerk was a computer instead of a human being there would be nobody left to scratch their heads over the 3 rooms for $25.00. The computer would simply force the irrational argument out of the transaction at the start."

WHAT? Trickfox! ..... there is nothing irrational about this!. This is REALITY. I am going to take you to task here.. You base your argument on “Ifsâ€

[Mikado14]

Put all of this aside please and just tell me where the dollar went.

Your asking for an apple when there are oranges. As soon as fractional values were created by the return of $5 which divides 3 ways as $1.66, the rules changed. The observer is looking only at the single or round numbers. You can't do it. The answer is false for there is no dollar lost.

Mikado

[Elizabeth Helen Drake]

Where are the women in this forum, cause the men are about to drive me stark raving mad.

One more time. Forget dividing anything. Picture nice clean one dollar bills. This is the reality of this situation. No one is dividing anything into bits an pieces. Crisp single dollar bills.

The cowboys pay, combined 30.00 .... which the motel manager discovers is a mistake. He hands the clerk FIVE SINGLE DOLLAR BILLS (Not fractions thereof). The clerk walks down the hall, makes his deal, keeps two of those crisp dollar bills. The cowboys keep the other three. Follow the action here folks. This is no trick question. You can not divide things up. Stay with the reality of the problem. Three bills have been returned to the cowboy. If you count the two that the clerk has then the management has paid them five dollars back. Right? We solid on that? No mystery. No tricks

We know where all the money is, right? Nothing has been divided into nothing. the money is right there.

Just answer the question then ... if we are all agreed on the above .... If each cowboy initially paid 10.00 each (right?) then if each gets a dollar back? simple math tells me that each one paid 9.00 right. Someone tell me where I am irrational here?

But suddenly as the one cowboy figured .... something goes strange. Follow me carefully. If each man then paid just nine dollars ..... thats twenty seven (the three dollars back have been accounted for. ) You account for the other two dollars ........ because we know the clerk has them. Are you still with me? The math tells you that you should have paid out .... nine times three eguals twentyseven .... plus the two .... is ..... Twentynine.

Why do you ALL insist on not seeing this? Victoria? LindaB? HELP. Elizabeth

[Paul S.]

Paul! You are pulling my leg I am sure. You can't possibly b trying to tell me that those cowboys did not pay nine dollars for their room!

They may have paid $9 for the room; they also paid $1.66/ea tip to the kid. It's stopping at "$9" that misses the point.

ITS NOT A TRICK QUESTION.

OK, it's not a "trick." It's just... "mathematical slight of hand." You divert the audience by drawing their attention to "3x9=27," which conveniently overlooks the fact that "9" is only a partial component.

The cowboys paid 10.00 each.

And collectively received a $5 refund. They kept $3 and gave $2 to the kid. Ergo, $30.

They each got a dollar back.

The each KEPT a dollar of the $1.66 they got back. Then they each gave the .66 to the kid.

Therefore .... (counting that they had given the clerk the tip of 2.00) .... They paid 9.00 each and the kid got two.

This would be fun if you did the math right and it came out that way. But what you're doing is fooling yourself with the semantics. They did not PAY $9/ea; they KEPT $9/ea. They PAID $8.33/ea.

Both situations are correct.

Only if you create the 'exception' with mathematical slight of hand. You are hiding the numbers under the peanut shell of the words. They didn't "pay." They "kept." And then it all adds up.

Does anyone see what I am trying to point out?

I don't even think it works relativistically. It only works if you don't actually think it through.

Sometimes some situations do not play by our rules and there is no amount of "fudging or arranging on our part that will change that.

That may be true in some situations. This isn't one of them. Not once you account for the mathematical and semantic slight of hand. It's a trick, and like every trick, there is an explanation.

But, you know, knowing the trick just sorta spoils the show.

And I am still waiting Trickfox. in clear language that a dummy like me can understand, where did that dollar go? <g>

I'll be surprised if this isn't one time Trickfox and I see perfectly eye-to-eye.

It's one thing to "think outside the box." It's something else to just not really know where the box is and THINK you're thinking outside the box.

--PS

[Paul S.]

One more time. Forget dividing anything. Picture nice clean one dollar bills. This is the reality of this situation. No one is dividing anything into bits an pieces. Crisp single dollar bills.

You show me the nice crisp $9 bill that each cowboy paid, and I'll concede the point.

That's what you don't see: the illusion of the "$9."

--PS

[Elizabeth Helen Drake]

Paul! Mikado ...... Trickfox I can not believe that you are all falling into this.

You all don't see this do you? Do you SEE what is happening here?

I seriously doubt that you do.

THERE IS NO SOLUTION TO THIS. YOU CAN NOT "MAKE A SOLUTION" TO THIS> NO AMOUNT OF MATH ON YOUR PART IS GOING TO WORK. YOU CALL IT SLEIGHT OF HAND. IT IS NOT. YOU JUST CAN'T SEE THAT EACH OF YOU REFUSES TO ACCEPT THAT THERE IS NOT A SOLUTION. SO YOU BEND THINGS TO MAKE IT RIGHT. THERE IS NO SOLUTION.

OK, I am done yelling.

No amount of explanations on my part are going to work because you see .... it has to be solved. Right? I give up. Elizabeth

[Mikado14]

Why do you ALL insist on not seeing this? Victoria? LindaB? HELP. Elizabeth

OK, I 'll tell you why. Because the clerk created the situation by returning 5 dollars. The clerk only recommended to the bell boy to ask the cowboys for 2 dollars as a tip. You are only observing a result and not the steps that led to it.

When you are holding a dollar bill, a single, crisp, paper, one dollar bill, is it not comprised of parts, is it not representative of 4 quarters? or 10 dimes? etc. You don't think of it that way, but it is. All you are looking at is the crisp single bill as a whole.

Perhaps there is another solution here....

Could it be testosterone vs estrogen? <g>

You do remember your post about Lincoln's quote don't you? You can keep asking about the dollar but there is no dollar and never will be it is lost in the aether. <g>

Mikado

[wdavidb]

Guys, you are talking to Elizabeth, a woman and women are much more logical than we men, so give her some credit here for having a little logic.

There is no solution to this problem, despite the fact that everyone got what they thought they got and everyone was happy with the arrangement. So in fact the missing dollar is an illusion, as there is no missing dollar. If there is a slight of hand trick involved it is simply making it appear that there is $1 not accounted for when in fact all the dollars are accounted for.

The trick is in the fact that the cowboys got $3 back, one dollar each and the clerk kept $2. Which is why you end up with them saying they paid $9 each for the room which is $27, plus the three they got back makes $30

The fact that they gave the clerk $2 has nothing to do with it, as this is where the slight of hand comes in. In total they only paid $25 which ended up in the hands of the motel manager.

It was the dividing up of the 5 $1 bills that throws you off, as it was up to them how it was going to be divided up.

If I gave you $10 and you gave me $1.....I would have given you a total of $9, but if you are going to say this is not what happened I would be quite happy to argue the point.

There are no cents involved here, just dollars, no one made change for a dollar.

This is a teaser, a little bit of fun with numbers and it is not supposed to end up in a macho contest attempting to explain to the lady that she doesn't know of what she speaks..........you want to bet she knows how to count her money, make no mistake about that gentlemen.

So Elizabeth, do you take cream and sugar in your coffee?

[Victoria Steele]

Are you guys all friggin nuts?

Look at what you all are trying to do? Hell with the fact that each cowboy got a single dollar bill back. Hell with the fact that the clerk has his two dollars. (the reality of it, you say is that each ACTUALLY had dollars and cents each, so neatly divided. Thats the REALITY you say.

I got news. I understand what Elizabeth has been trying to say.

And Paul, I thought that you would see through all of this instead of buying into it to ( with the additional snide nine dollar bill remark just for kicks).

You all are representing EXACTLY what happened to Dr. Brown when he tried to explain some of his more exotic developments. He called it "anomalous behaviour" I think. And he ran into EXACTLY the kind of actions you all have displayed here. "There is a solution to this and by damned this is going to be it !".... (even if it doesnt really follow the elegant simplicity of the original problem.) You see though if you follow the simplicity you also run into the anomaly. And tht just won't do. will it?.....

You guys are all so sure that there is a solution to this problem! If you mash the figures around long enough of course you can MAKE anything conform. But thats not what the reality of this thing is. And I agree with Elizabeth. It might be a lost cause. Victoria