Chapter 27 - A complete System

[Elizabeth Helen Drake]

Greg,

Why would anyone " hold out" information? Why would the people working on all of this have to 'reinvent the wheel".

Here is another point to be made from maybe another side.

Why help someone who hasn't done the work himself.
Why help someone reach a level that without the understanding of how he got there, a person who might not understand or might not appreciate his position.

And Greg. what if this process is REINVENTING THE WHEEL?

Elizabeth

[greggvizza]

I can see both perspectives. Corporations sign scientists to non-disclosure agreements to protect their economic interests. Scientists in academia on the other hand publish their findings to show the whole world what they have discovered. Then there is also the scenario where a technology is inherently dangerous and should not be made public.

We are reinventing the wheel, from the hidden black world of TTB. But do we need to reinvent it more than once? If we do, then we do; that is fine, I'll go with the flow. I'm fine with letting everyone live their life as they wish. I was just asking a very important question and didn’t understand why Mikado wouldn’t answer it when he seemed to have had the answer. He definitely must have his reasons, and it's definitely OK with me. I haven’t lived his life, so who am I to tell him how he should respond. I am 100% OK with his response.

Peace Love and Gravity

Gregg

[Paul S.]

Why help someone who hasn't done the work himself. Why help someone reach a level that without the understanding of how he got there, a person who might not understand or might not appreciate his position.

Right. Why bother having colleagues, associates, mentors -- teammates -- at all, if everybody has to do it all on their own???

--PS

[twigsnapper]

There you go again Paul.

The "memberships" and the "colleagues" and the "mentors" are always there .... but the conclusions are specifically yours. And should be. So complain if you want, but reach your own conclusions after all the dust has settled. Nothing else will be true and valid.

Otherwise what you have here is a mob of sheep. And if you are going to talk about groups of animals together I far prefer horses as you well know.

A herd of fine horses at full gallop is a wondrous thing to see. With their various coat colors and sizes and strengths. They pick their way through the countryside with a wondrous grace. Following a point stud (or usually mare) perhaps, but not glued to it or to each other. A sort of rolling consensus. Then there are other fine horses that follow beind the main herd, placing their hooves in the same prints, knowing all the time that someday they too will be at the lead in some capacity. Sort of the way these herds work. The leader one day will slowly relinquish, tire, fall back, but there will be another who will take the lead and go forward. I rather expect it will be a grey horse but then, I have always liked greys.

twigsnapper

[greggvizza]

This forum is primarily to aid in the development of Paul’s TT Brown book. I may have inadvertently tried to use it as a electrogavity developers group. There is only one forum that I know of that is dedicated to telling the life story of TT Brown, but there are many electrogravity developers forums. On this forum everyone seems to work synergistically toward the goal of completing the book. So in essence, this forum ideally performs its intended purpose. If they don’t work so synergistically towards the development of working devices then why should we expect it? It is not the purpose here.

I have been obsessed over gravity from my early childhood and it doesn’t seem to be waning as I enter my third trimester of life. I get carried away in exuberance and insert my presumptuous self in places were it should not be inserted.

Sorry for the course deviation. Now back to the life of TT Brown.

Gregg

[Elizabeth Helen Drake]

Greg,

I appreciate your enthusiasm for gravity work. But you are right in one respect. This is a forum which has as its guiding compass the intention to help talk about Townsend Browns work and what can be developed for others to study. Of course I think most of us look at Pauls book as a vehicle for that. So we are an odd crew here, completely different with completely different ways of looking at things and responding to things.

But we all seem to be going in the same general direction. Your comments and questions are not in conflict with what the rest of us are interested in. You are right though, we may not be as invested in the economic development of anti-gravity work as some other sites.

My suggestion is to take from us what helps you and grab from others too what informs your understanding.

But I do appreciate you sort of letting us off the hook a little bit. Most of us do not have answers, just some very profound questions. And we have learned that one thing oddly seems to lead to another. And it is that quest that most of us seem to be affected by.

Never consider your thoughts a " course deviation". One thing we are learning is that things that look totally opposite may not in fact be. We just need to work on our understanding of some very challenging material! What you might do with it afterwards is ...... up to you? Elizabeth

[Mikado14]

Mikado,

Why allow everyone to reinvent the wheel and waist all that precious time? If you have constructed a working disk, why not explain it so others can quickly build successful devices as well?

GV

"If I say that I have then it is out there, if I allude to it, then it is a nebulous answer."

I have no idea where I heard that but it comes to mind. What is it that you would like explained? Could it be the How? The Why? or How much did it cost? or a myriad of other questions.

Your subsequent posts and what you wrote, are more of what this forum is about. It is not about the how of the technology but more of the man it is named after. It is not about what Mikado has done or will do but more about the man T. Townsend Brown and what he has done and what he accomplished. It is his story, his life, his work and how it has affected the ....world,, that is of import here.

I will break with what I have said, and will probably be scolded for this by an associate, however, a disk to prove the Biefeld-Brown effect only proves the basic theorem. There is so much more and a different avenue must be travelled inorder to understand. It must be approached at the nano level (as my phone is now ringing off the hook) as I have come to realize. Anti-Gravity (how I hate that use of those words) is only one facet of the jewel. There is so much more, so very much more. Do not limit your imagination to propulsion only.

Now why does a tunnel diode come to mind and what would the significance of that paricular PN junction have that attracted the attention of one Dr. Brown? There is a direction to try,.....at least for now.

Please understand, I answer with respect, to you Gregg, and upon this forum and all who partake in it. Building a disk and flying it is not a hard job to do, it is something else that is difficult. Let's get the book done first.

Mikado

[ETernalightwithin]

Elizabeth,

Why are you asking about pulsed?

It is interesting because a capacitor based system, that is arcing, is essentially being pulsed. The arc looks constant but it is actually a continual series of short pulses. Possibly millions of pulses per second.

GV

Dang, you beat me too it.

[Elizabeth Helen Drake]

ETLW,

Deckers home office used to be 4151 Monument Drive (or Road) Bala Cynwyd. For awhile after Dr. Browns Departure the " complex" was called Decker One, Decker Two, Decker Three and Decker Four.

Then later the names were revised I think, to Bala One, Bala Two and Bala Three. I am not sure about there being a " four" And those may be the addresses that buildings in the area carry now.

In 1966 Dr. Brown worked out of a large building then known as #4 in the Decker laboratories complex, but all traces of that building are totally gone now and there is nothing there at its old location but a lovely parking lot under some magnificent trees. I believe the surrounding buildings are now occupied by a radio station.

I was able to find an enormous tree that Dr. Brown had mentioned in some of his private papers. He and Linda used to have lunch under its branches. I thought at the time that he would have been pleased that the tree was still there and it has a marker on it making it a " tree of historical interest" which means its future is assured. But there is no trace of "Building Number four" which would have just been a short walk away.

I wandered around the site a couple of years ago, talked to people, looked for anything that would speak to Martin Deckers facility ever being there. No one remembered of course, and the only thing I found was a street sign that ,I believe, said " Decker lane."

I understand during 1966 there was a very tall fieldstone wall that separated the " Decker Complex" from the community down the hill, but even that has been taken apart and dispersed through the area . A section here, a section there. An odd end to what at one time was a vibrant business and scientific entity.

Eternalightwithin .... if you live close enough to indeed " go take a look" Please do, and let us know if you can find anything more than I could at the time. I was a visitor from out of the area and maybe I really missed alot. Elizabeth

[greggvizza]

Your subsequent posts and what you wrote, are more of what this forum is about. It is not about the how of the technology but more of the man it is named after.

Yes I agree.

There is so much more, so very much more. Do not limit your imagination to propulsion only.

I am not limiting my imagination to propulsion only. I realize that along with gravity control comes time travel or time shifting effects, effects on brain waves, gravity wave communications and surveillance, and more. I enjoy the pursuit of all knowledge so all of those aspects interest me, however I seem to gravitate toward propulsion. I know that electrogravitic propulsion is the least significant of all the aforementioned possibilities, and if space-time can be manipulated or warped then there will be no real need for propulsion, but I love flying, and in the short term I see electrogravitic craft as something that can be done immediately and used for a little while before they become obsolete.

What is it that you would like explained? Could it be the How? The Why? or How much did it cost? or a myriad of other questions.

It is none of the above……but since you are asking.. it is: “Where does the arcing take place in a TTB disk? If there is a large disk and a small disk, separated by a high strength dielectric, the arc can’t be through the dielectric or it would be destroyed. I have seen TTB disk photos that show a wire suspended out around the front perimeter. In the photo there is a visible arc between this wire and the edge of the disk. Is this suspended perimeter wire specifically for arcing?"

Now why does a tunnel diode come to mind and what would the significance of that particular PN junction have that attracted the attention of one Dr. Brown?

(Thinking to myself out loud) To rectify GHz signals? To generate GHz signals? ....No... Possibly only for the quantum tunneling principle used in the PN junction and not the specific diode/rectifier properties at all?...... Wonder why Mikado won’t just say? Economic exclusivity? …If it’s economic exclusivity then why would he be so hard on Andrew over his financial interests? No it’s probably not economic reasons.........Gregg, I think it is time to shut the old brain down for the day and go to bed; yeah great idea. ...........Use the force Gregg…..Hey who said that?

GV

[Mikado14]

There is so much more, so very much more. Do not limit your imagination to propulsion only.

I am not limiting my imagination to propulsion only. I realize that along with gravity control comes time travel or time shifting effects, effects on brain waves, gravity wave communications and surveillance, and more. I enjoy the pursuit of all knowledge so all of those aspects interest me, however I seem to gravitate toward propulsion. I know that electrogravitic propulsion is the least significant of all the aforementioned possibilities, and if space-time can be manipulated or warped then there will be no real need for propulsion, but I love flying, and in the short term I see electrogravitic craft as something that can be done immediately and used for a little while before they become obsolete. .

Not limiting your imagination is important in any search for truth, it is the objectivity path, I see you recognize that. Even though you admit to the recognition that there are more aspects than just propulsion, you openly admitted that you "gravitate" towards propulsion. In reading your previous posts, I assumed ( we all know what that means ) that that was the thrust of your endeavors, I was wrong and thank you for correcting that. I honestly don't believe that they would become obsolete, sail propulsion is alive and well.

What is it that you would like explained? Could it be the How? The Why? or How much did it cost? or a myriad of other questions.

It is none of the above……but since you are asking.. it is: “Where does the arcing take place in a TTB disk? If there is a large disk and a small disk, separated by a high strength dielectric, the arc can’t be through the dielectric or it would be destroyed. I have seen TTB disk photos that show a wire suspended out around the front perimeter. In the photo there is a visible arc between this wire and the edge of the disk. Is this suspended perimeter wire specifically for arcing?".

I did not know of TT Brown until recently, therefore, I cannot answer what took place with any of his disks.

Now why does a tunnel diode come to mind and what would the significance of that particular PN junction have that attracted the attention of one Dr. Brown?

(Thinking to myself out loud) To rectify GHz signals? To generate GHz signals? ....No... Possibly only for the quantum tunneling principle used in the PN junction and not the specific diode/rectifier properties at all?......

Spoken with objectivity....like an engineer with imagination.

Wonder why Mikado won’t just say? Economic exclusivity? …If it’s economic exclusivity then why would he be so hard on Andrew over his financial interests? No it’s probably not economic reasons.........Gregg, I think it is time to shut the old brain down for the day and go to bed; yeah great idea. ...........Use the force Gregg…..Hey who said that?

Now this will be difficult to answer. "Economic exclusivity?" The answer to that is a resounding NO, there are those here that can attest to that. I will not be enlisted into another debate over Andrew's philosophies and Mikado's philosophies in regards to economics and the motivating forces involved, my hatchet is buried and I don't remember where.

I am sure Andrew can answer questions in regard to disks built by TTBrown. The information has been in his possession for over 20 years, why not ask him about the arcing. But I will throw this out on the table, Andrew has certain notebooks but yet, certain notebooks are in a safe place.......Are the disks really that important?

Mikado

[greggvizza]

First of all I would like to thank you for your last set of responses. They cleared up a lot of things. I am now at peace with the universe.

Not limiting your imagination is important in any search for truth, it is the objectivity path, I see you recognize that. Even though you admit to the recognition that there are more aspects than just propulsion, you openly admitted that you "gravitate" towards propulsion. In reading your previous posts, I assumed (we all know what that means) that that was the thrust of your endeavors, I was wrong and thank you for correcting that.

It may be possible for one man to have knowledge of everything but it is impossible for one man to physically do everything. I like to know everything there is to know, but when it comes to doing, I usually need to narrow my focus to one thing and do it; otherwise I become awash in an infinite sea of knowledge and never accomplish anything. So, yes I want to understand everything, but the thrust of my physical endeavors has gravitated toward propulsion. I had to pick something and get on with it.

Are the disks really that important?

To me they are. Maybe since the lifters were so disappointing, I am looking to the TTB disks as a much better prototype / proof of concept model.

As I mentioned before, gravity control has been an obsession of mine since early childhood. Things seem to come in waves though, and the start of the last wave for me was in 1997 when I read a few of Hal Putoff's papers. Then in 2000 I read his paper titled Quantum Vacuum Fluctuations: A New Rosetta Stone of Physics? The various articles got me thinking and I came up with my own gravity theory, then in 2001 I read about the lifter (I thought we had arrived) and I joined the JLN's Lifters Group (back when it had less than 100 members; it’s now in the thousands). After watching videos of their lifters, I needed to see one for myself, so rather than flying to France, I built a few standard ones with rectangular skirts. Then made some improvements. I developed what is now termed the tubular lifter. The tubular skirt allows for higher operating voltage. 30kV is a typical lifter operational voltage before breakdown. The tubular design allowes for 75kV operation. I then made a toroidal tubular lifter with a single needle emitter in the center, a TT Brown Umbrella, and a few Gravitators. I then discovered precision altitude control, which allows a lifter to instantly stop and hover at an exact position or instantly climb or drop to any desired position and instantaneously stop and hover with no overshoot or ringing. Then I played with pulsed DC, and AC of all frequencies up to the MHz range, The power supply was a laboratory grade Glassman, fully regulated fully variable 4000 Watt supply with digital voltage and current metering. I had to install a dedicated 220V double 30A breaker in my panel, wired to an electric dryer type receptacle, just to be able to power it up.

All of these experiments happened in rapid succession in 2001-2002 and then I lost interest in the lifters. The lifter work satisfied my curiosity (I need to see it for myself) but it was not exactly what I was looking for. During that time we tried a few TTB discs but with no real success, and then the wave dropped into its trough and I haven’t done anything since.

I am sensing another crest on the horizon and I am ready to have at it again. This time I would like to experiment with voltages above 250KV. I remember reading that 250KV was a sort of threshold. At 250KV there will be arcing. Up until last week (when I read the forum post on the TTB vacuum experiments) I assumed that arcing was a negative thing. I knew that I wouldnt be able to keep things from arcing at those potentials so we didn’t persue it. Now we find that the arcing is not a negative thing but actually essential to propulsion. It makes me want to give it a try.

It was also a big relief recently to find that TTB didn’t loose his lung due to Ozone exposure.

Gregg

[Mikado14]

I am sensing another crest on the horizon and I am ready to have at it again. This time I would like to experiment with voltages above 250KV. I remember reading that 250KV was a sort of threshold. At 250KV there will be arcing. Up until last week (when I read the forum post on the TTB vacuum experiments) I assumed that arcing was a negative thing. I knew that I wouldnt be able to keep things from arcing at those potentials so we didn’t persue it. Now we find that the arcing is not a negative thing but actually essential to propulsion. It makes me want to give it a try.

It was also a big relief recently to find that TTB didn’t loose his lung due to Ozone exposure.

Gregg

Always being the rowdy one in school, I cannot sit back and have peace<G>.

1. Try experimenting with compound curved positive discs
2. A ratio of 5 to 1 on plate area had best effects
3. 400 to 500kv will give you fairly good results provided the diameter of the positive plate does not exceed 18 inches. In case your curious, the voltage was created with cascaded flybacks, I wouldn't recommend it unless you really know what you are up against.
4. A plasma field will be created
5. Best propulsion was acheived in the winter when the air was denser and drier.

I believe that somewhere you stated that you were an engineer, ergo, you know how to calculate the dielectric breakdown for the material you will choose. I never had access to a large vacuum chamber. The year this was done was '78 thru '80. The technology available at the time, at least to me, was not conducive to going any further but I agree.....something is a foot Watson.

Mikado

[greggvizza]

Mikado,

Amazing that you were doing this clear back in 1978. Strange how there are troughs and crests. Nothing much seemed to have gone on between 1978 and 2000, at least not for civilians. Now it is all the rage. You were very ahead of the curve.

Cascaded flybacks? I am really surprised. That is actually good news that you were able to obtain propulsion with that arrangement. That is 16 flybacks. There wouldn’t be much amperage left after cascading 16 of them. Lifters draw considerably more current. Which again goes to show how unrelated they are.

I would suspect that with a higher current supply the air density and humidity would be less of a factor; there would be a richer plasma (for lack of better terms); although we don’t want to vaporize the disks.

Maybe the answer is to procure another Glassman Supply that is variable to 500KV. The Glassmans have two 10-turn pots, one for voltage and one for current, and two corresponding digital meters. This way the current can be increased in increments and the effects noted at each. (Just thinking out loud again)

Thanks for the tips,

Gregg

[Mikado14]

Cascaded flybacks? I am really surprised. That is actually good news that you were able to obtain propulsion with that arrangement. That is 16 flybacks. There wouldn’t be much amperage left after cascading 16 of them.

Actually there were two sets or supplies, the first had 10 and the second had 12. The flybacks in the first set (10) were taken from RCA sets 25" and were 40 - 50 kv ratings each, and were used for inline and not delta tube configuration, thus the higher rating. The second with 12 were from Sylvania sets, same size tube and also inline. The ratings, 40 to 50kV again, were used. The reason I chose to use the Sylvania was due to the fact that they ran a consistent 48kV on the second anode. Also, it doesn't hurt to be a dealer for either one at the time and the Sylvania were cheaper and a higher rating.

In a perfect world.....ahem.......there would be no losses in the disc, thus, no current required, at least from my observations.

Mikado