The Paul LaViolette book

A place to engage extended discussions of things that come up on the ttbrown.com website. Anything goes here, as long as it's somehow pertinent to the subject(s) at hand.
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Radomir
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The Paul LaViolette book

Post by Radomir »

So the topic is Secrets of Antigravity Propulsion: Tesla, UFOs, and Classified Aerospace Technology by Paul LaViolette.

Open invitation to anyone else reading it at this point who may want to discuss it here.
I'm on chapter three at this point. I hope to continue to post any relevant comments as I move through the book.
For now I'm leaving out any direct commentary on Paul LaV's subquantum kinitecs theory.

While I applaud anything that can help get this overall story out, I'm troubled by for instance the multiple references to Paul S's online draft chapters (referenced five times in Chapter One). Which Paul LaV apparently did not seek permission to do. He might cite fair use, but it just seems un-neighborly not to get in touch about something like that. He also makes extensive use, as one might predict, of the resources at the Qualight site.

Chapter One does a pretty decent job of outlining the early TTB story and introduction to for instance the 1928 patent -- the basic electrogravitic effect, gravitator and electrogravitic motor embodiment. I don't really follow the parallels in nature that he tries to draw, for instance about some location in Greece where water supposedly runs uphill as any direct link to TTB's work. He covers some of the early siderial radiation sensor experiments. Then things get muddied up for about 12 pages of rehashing the Philadelphia Experiment. Muddy like red Carolina clay after a week of rain. The consensus on the site has been that such suppositions really don't help make the case about the fundamental technology, and those pages prove that point if nothing else.

Chapter two gets into the tethered flying discs, accounts of demonstrations of those, the flame jet generator, Project Winterhaven proposal, right up to the Adamski style saucer and how all of this ought to make such a saucer move. Although he covers it for about a page, so far he seems to completely miss the potential significance of the electrogravitic transmitter. We'll see if it comes up again. Then about eighteen pages of quotes from various publications in the 1956-ish era to show there was top secret Anti-gravity research being done by multiple companies. I would have preferred him to condense that somewhat, it gets pretty repetitive.

To reiterate, at this point I'm glad to see the effort and that more of this information is getting out there. At the same time I find an at times annoying lack of rigor in the manner in which he makes his case.

Best,
R.
Chris Knight
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Re: The Paul LaViolette book

Post by Chris Knight »

Dr. LaViolette was kind enough to forward a copy of his book to me a few weeks ago, but I have to admit, I haven't read through all of it.

We were in contact with him for awhile in January and February of this year regarding various issues. Unfortunately I was not able to help as much as I could have due to my arrangement with Paul. However, we did discuss the Structure of Space at some length. I appreciated that he did give the proper photo credits to The Townsend Brown Family and Qualight where appropriate, unlike other authors in the past.

I aslo found his use of the online chapters somewhat disconcerting, but he was in contact with Paul, and I don't have any information regarding their correspondence.

In general, Dr. LaViolette seems to present three sides of the arguement, Mr. William Moore's, the Who's Who of Science, and Paul's. However, we all know that William Moore got a lot of his dates from Who's Who of Science (I have Moore's original file folder on Townsend Brown), so those two sides correlate fairly well with each other, while Paul's dates come from other sources and differ. Dr. LaViolette also takes issue with the confidence level of Paul's sources, and some of his reasoning is decidedly circular (I know this is true because this happened, and I know this happened because this is true).

One of the things I got a good laugh about was the story, almost verbatum from Moore, regarding the proof-read chapter Moore sent to Townsend regarding the Philly Experiment, and the response of Townsend that the story was "essentially correct." i.e. "there's a hole big enough to drive a truck through."

That aside, the first sections of the book are fairly well written, much of it rehashed misinformation, BUT in other areas, particularly those involving the technology, I was impressed how really spot on he was. I was very impressed with his understanding of some aspects of the technology. Definitely not a slouch there.

All in all, I made a number of notes in the margins of the book, which I seldom do, so that says something from my corner.
Andrew
Qualight Environmental
(http://www.qualight.com, http://www.qualightenv.com, http://www.qualightscp.com)

"If you think the situation is under control, then you don't truly understand the situation."
Radomir
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Re: The Paul LaViolette book

Post by Radomir »

Thanks Chris for your review. Guess later on Paul can set us straight on whether he was contacted or not about the use of those cites.

I agree it was rather choice to see that phrase "substantially correct."

Moving on to Chapter 3. starting with "the Paris experiments."

Now I had thought that details about the experiments were unavailable, but he cites a paper by Rho Sigma [Rolf Schaffranke] Ether Technology: A Rational Approach to Gravity Control quoting a letter by TTB, and other sources such as an "unpublished report" on the Paris work by TTB (included as Appendix D). If it's unpublished I'm wondering where he found it--not dubious, just curious. Could these sources be helpful to rounding out Paul S.'s book or has he already been aware of them?

It appears, so far, that one of Paul LaV's suppositions is that TTB was actually excluded from any advanced work on his own discoveries. I think we here believe that is not the case.

I blanch at his next sub-chapter title, "overunity levitation" (regarding the work in Winston-Salem with Bahanson), the term "overunity" being so -- forgive me -- highly charged and valanced, not to mention over-used in the alternative / suppressed energy technology community on the web as to be an automatic target for debunkers of all stripes. What he means is the achievement of a levitational force that can lift the arcuate device plus some additional weight.

That said, as Chris mentioned, Paul LaV's descriptions of how the technologies are supposed to work are at least clear, though again he jumps into his own vocabulary and theory ("subquantum kinetics") pretty quickly. Writing a book of this sort is difficult without resorting to what has already been called 'weasel words.' Something to consider for the future.

There is reference to two companies TTB set up, one "Whitehall Rand" and the other "Rand International Limited" both of which he mentions in context of the patents related to each.

He spends some time throughout talking about how much more efficient this method is than any conventional thrust mechanism, with the direct link being drawn to potential use in space flight.

His chapter-ending assertion is that as of 1959 all of the relative openness around "antigravity" research amongst the aerospace companies went black.

I want to be reiterate that I'm grateful for Paul LaV's work on this and am not trying to be overly critical-- I am hoping to draw out any information in that could be helpful with Paul S's effort, as well as to bring up any interesting or possibly controversial issues this recently published book might contain for us to discuss.

Rose, weren't you reading this as well or was I mistaken? Would welcome your thoughts if you are.

R.
Radomir
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Re: The Paul LaViolette book

Post by Radomir »

One more thing, while I'm thinking of it, is that the Paul LaV book completely lacks the kind of compelling, driving narrative that is so central to the Parallel Universe book, or Nick Cook's effort, for that matter (which was couched sort of like a detective novel). This makes for pretty dry reading, and likely to be appealing to a much smaller subset of people who are most likely already interested in the issue of antigravity. I predict a much broader appeal for Paul S.'s book, for that reason.

R.
Rose
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Re: The Paul LaViolette book

Post by Rose »

Radomir, I posted a quote from the Amazon review of the book a while ago, but it's way down at the bottom of my reading list. And based on what you have said about it, it may stay there.

rose.
Strange travel suggestions are dancing lessons from god.
Mark Culpepper
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Re: The Paul LaViolette book

Post by Mark Culpepper »

Rose,

Still waiting for my copy, which I am going to place on the shelf with all of the other ( some dubious) accounts of the sorts of things that Townsend Brown was " into".

Radomir,
I totally agree with you that Pauls book will provide a much meatier and more satisfying read and I am content to wait for it. Though, like you I don't mind reading what the others have to say, just so I can appreciate the work that Paul and his " sources" have done here.

I have been away so welcome " Skyfish"! Really find your name here interesting indeed. And to get a compliment like that recent one from Paul is really special. And I appreciated what you said too. Looking forward to reading more from you.

And anyone find it strange that Linda Brown has been so silent lately.
Especially with Skyfish logging on? No word of welcome? Not from Linda, which is odd and not even from Elizabeth Drake...... a new forum member always brought a comment from her .... Paul, is everything all right regarding those ladies?

And Radomir I certainly caught your " Carolina mud " reference if no one else did. Which in this crowd I really doubt.

Paul LaViolette has written before about Townsend Brown and he must have been delighted to have all of this fresh material drift to the surface and made available for his use. Like all of you I am a little hesitant about seeing Pauls book out there, but I am assuming that is sort of the price some authors might have to pay for that kind of exposure and I am sure that Paul was aware of the possibilities and discounted all of that ahead of time.

Its as if all of these other people are finally saying ..... I don't know what the " Townsend Brown Effect is ..... but its something .... and thats a better start than ..... WHAT?

So sorry about your father-in-law Paul. My condolences. Though he looks like he got alot done in a good life and left treasures behind. What more could anyone ask? MarkC
Chris Knight
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Re: The Paul LaViolette book

Post by Chris Knight »

Mark,

Linda Brown's computer has been down for several weeks now, and their second computer went down a week or so ago, but she is fine. I spoke with them this morning, and it looks like one or both computers will be up in the next few days.

As far as the book goes, I lent her my copy for a day only (as I was still reading it at the time), and I believe Paul requested that Mr. LaViolette send a copy her way.
Andrew
Qualight Environmental
(http://www.qualight.com, http://www.qualightenv.com, http://www.qualightscp.com)

"If you think the situation is under control, then you don't truly understand the situation."
Mikado14
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Re: The Paul LaViolette book

Post by Mikado14 »

Chris Knight wrote:Mark,

Linda Brown's computer has been down for several weeks now, and their second computer went down a week or so ago, but she is fine. I spoke with them this morning, and it looks like one or both computers will be up in the next few days.

As far as the book goes, I lent her my copy for a day only (as I was still reading it at the time), and I believe Paul requested that Mr. LaViolette send a copy her way.
One is on the way to her but I am not the one to thank. I just helped to spend someone else's money, so therefore, Mr. LaViolette will appreciate this way better for he sold another book.

Mikado
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Linda Brown
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Re: The Paul LaViolette book

Post by Linda Brown »

Radomir,

You said "It appears, so far, that one of Paul LaV's suppositions is that TTB was actually excluded from any advanced work on his own discoveries. I think we here believe that is not the case."

and I just wanted to agree with you.

- I am not sure where that idea started but it seems to have taken hold. Of course many people would assume that my Dad had been " excluded" from the further work because he didn't demonstrate what might have been expected of someone with ongoing projects at NASA or where ever.In fact, many people would have pointed to my parents lifestyle toward the end of his life as proof that he had not been " successful or recognized" and that the military or others must have taken his ideas from him and left him sort of " in the dust". Strangely I believe that Paul may have come into his book project with me thinking much the same way. His chapter dealing with the last days of my Dads life could easily lead you to that conclusion... just take a look at that sad little quonselt hut! ( no reflection on the Islanders living there now but I wanted to point out that Pauls picture of it was taken twenty years after we were there. The charming enormous trees are gone, the climbing roses on the fence are gone now.... I remembered it as being a happy home and it probably still is .... but a normal suburban house .... it was not. People could easily look at that picture and get the impression that Dad had died in poverty and obscurity.

There are some reading this that know that was not the truth. He came to the Island because of many reasons. The first being that Momma wanted to come home to be close to us. The last few months we shared that little home .... Momma taking care of Jennifer while George and I worked at our business. Dad tended his recordings in the small room he had taken over so that he could continue sleeping ontop of his work. He did that because she wanted to be back on the island and I think that he knew very well that his days were numbered and that he wanted to spend them with us.

So one could look at that situation and think that he had been " deprived" and forgotten but that was not the case. He made a choice. Which as you follow this story you will find that was generally the case.

Thankyou Radomir. Linda
skyfish
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Re: The Paul LaViolette book

Post by skyfish »

I have been away so welcome " Skyfish"!
Thanks Mark!
Since I am new I have been catching up and was pleasantly surprised to find mention of me in this string. There is so much to savor here…the posts and links. A true feast for the mind...and soul. Paul was so kind as to indulge me in a couple of emails…well I looked and it was more than a couple(thanks Paul for your patience) and I am happy to have followed his…and trickfox’s suggestions to join. I have never been involved with any forums or blogs before so this is new for me...and as Linda will tell you...I am not her! :D
I am just an IT guy but these ideas have been bouncing around in my head for years(very persistent they are) and it is SO nice to have found an outlet…and to be appreciated…wow…I am very happy indeed! My only regret is that a “place” like this did not exist years ago.

Mark…skyfish …born in March…Pisces…and I like the idea of “swimming in space/time”
Mark Culpepper
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Re: The Paul LaViolette book

Post by Mark Culpepper »

Ah, Skyfish. A great name. wasn't Dr. Brown a Pisces too? I think he was, so you have even more in common. MarkC
Linda Brown
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Re: The Paul LaViolette book

Post by Linda Brown »

Some little notes on Mr. LaViolettes book.

I am generally very impressed with the amount of thought that he has put into presenting Dads work , or what he has considered what was going on with Dad. At the same time and I guess not entirely his fault, he has been very swayed by other reports and his investigations and vetting of those reports are what Mr. Radomir has dubbed " less than rigorous".

For example on page 50 he states " Some years later, around 1953 or 1954, in the hope of renewing the Navys interest, Brown again staged a demonstration at Pearl Harbor for a number of Admirals." ( around 53? or 54?)

Paul S? There were TWO demonstrations at Pearl? What then was the first one? Where'd it go? Am I just misreading what he was saying here?

And some things are just annoying because he ASSUMES information and then presents it as fact. "Page 86 " Brown was unwilling to give up that easily (?????????) He continued his work under the sponsorship of a Delaware Company he had formed called " Whitehall Rand Corporation" which had offices in both Washington and London." OH Really? No London office, honest. Perhaps ties to London ( through Mr. Twigsnapper at the time perhaps) but no real office. If he had an office there , knowing my Dad , he would have put it on his stationary. <g> and had a cable address.

Talking further about corporations then LaViolette mentions " That same year Brown and his friends organized a company called Rand International Limited, with Brown serving as its president. Together they carried on electrogravitics experiments and applied for more than seventy-five patents in twelve major countries ( the United States, Australia, Canada, France, Belgium, Great Britain, Germany, Holland, Italy, Japan, Sweden and Switzerland)

This according to Paul LaViolette was after the Bahnson situation in 1958 ( which he seems to think went on for years and years but in actuality Dad left in October of 1958 and never returned to work with Mr. King or Mr. Bahnson.

The " friends" he mentioned above who " organized a company" by the way ..... centered that particular company in Nassau. Rand International and " The Townsend Brown Foundation (limited)" were both organized by the same people. Check out the letters posted on page 405. ...... Dad used that main stationary for a long time, simply changing his personal mailing address on the upper right hand side. The rest of the information and business went straight to Nassau. All of this of course I didn't really expect Paul LaViolette to catch. His source "well"... and alot of the water, as Mr. Radomir said, was muddy nad just was not deep enough.

I am just pointing out how very much though he has missed , which Paul has not. Thats what is going to make Pauls book so much more interesting. Linda
Victoria Steele
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Re: The Paul LaViolette book

Post by Victoria Steele »

Somebody asked ( I think on another thread) Where were the Ladies in this last discussion. Sitting it out. Maybe its just me but I usually have better things to amuse myself with a bunch of handsome men than to get into a pissing contest. They are the only ones that can pee in a swinging bottle anyway.... as my Dad used to say. So I figured what was the use! <g>

Speaking now of LaViolettes book. Did you all notice that he has made the statement the the name B2 might actually ( or should have been?) when I find the book I will edit in the exact quote. I was astounded that he would say that actually. Victoria
Mark Culpepper
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Re: The Paul LaViolette book

Post by Mark Culpepper »

Victoria,

You are actually the only one on this Forum who has the ability to REALLY make me laugh right out loud.
Thanks for that bottle remark.

I haven't found the page for that remark either yet ( that B2 should have, or perhaps did, stand for " Biefeld-Brown".) Fanciful thinking but I was shocked to see it in print too.

and then on page 112 he says

"In effect the B2 is a realization of the concept that Brown first proposed in project Winterhaven. Its Electrogravitic technology would probably have remained a secret were it not for information leaked by a group of engineers who were part of the inner circle working on such super secret projects."

Talk about un-named sources. Who are these guys? Linda, do you know who these men might have been? I know that your Dad had close working relationships with Mr. Floyd Odlum who was closely tied apparently to this kind of thing but who is Paul LaViolettes source of information. And here is another good question. Why doesn't he question WHY they are leaking this information. Or does he do that and I just haven't read that part yet? MarkC
greggvizza
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Re: The Paul LaViolette book

Post by greggvizza »

Mark Culpepper wrote:I haven't found the page for that remark either yet ( that B2 should have, or perhaps did, stand for " Biefeld-Brown".) Fanciful thinking but I was shocked to see it in print too.
That is an interesting coincidence. The B2 was the successor to the B1, which shared none of the B2’s electrokinetic technology, but it is interesting how B2 symbolizes Biefeld-Brown.

GV
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