Chapter 59: The Whole Deal

Use this section for any discussion specifically related to the chapters posted online of the unfolding biography, "Defying Gravity: The Parallel Universe of T. Townsend Brown
grinder
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cheerfully

Post by grinder »

Thanks to you guys I reread this one chapter too and found something interesting that I hadn't noticed before. This is from the account of the voyage on the Caroline ... after ... Stephensons visit on board..... while they anchored in the port of Nassau.

https://www.ttbrown.com/defying_gravity ... dging.html

"At one point in the voyage, “Son Fenâ€
twigsnapper
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The whole deal

Post by twigsnapper »

You know, if you study this chapter you will see a hint of a message that is lying right there for you to see.

For all of the inspired and wonderful world that special and gifted men and women like Townsend Brown manifest in their work there is also another world out there. The world which Stephenson understood and lived in ... where truth was kept safe by a bodyguard of lies, where rough men stood in the way of other rough men, all of that world demanding the development of "agendas" and where a young chestnut haired hopeful was greeted with the smile and words " I see you are still above ground."

In regards to "national security" in the United States, it became imperitive to develop a "detached approach to murder" which was then called " executive action"
twigsnapper
Last edited by twigsnapper on Mon May 28, 2007 3:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
Elizabeth Helen Drake
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reading other peoples mail

Post by Elizabeth Helen Drake »

Sobering thoughts Mr. Twigsnapper, I know I will eventually have to go there ... but right now can I stay here?

I just happened to read this part of Pauls book and I had actually forgotten about it but thought that maybe you would like to see it Langley, if you haven't read it yet. You mentioned flying boats I think.

https://www.ttbrown.com/defying_gravity ... urces.html

and for those who don't want to read the whole thing this is the part I found the most interesting for right now...........................

"The next day, my source reported back to me on the meeting.. Here is what my source's source tells us about those photographs and the period in which they were taken: :

1) Those photographs from Zanesville, 1937? They were not taken in Zanesville, and they weren’t taken in 1937. They were taken in the middle of the Atlantic, somewhere in Bermuda, in the spring of 1934 (I guess that explains the white suit…);

2) Brown was supposedly in New York City and Cleveland during that period. Evidently, that’s not where he was;

3) The photos were taken as part of some kind of demonstration;

4) Brown stayed at an (unnamed) hotel that later became the headquarters for William Stephenson’s “letter openingâ€
Mark Culpepper
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his words again

Post by Mark Culpepper »

I know that this particular message from Mr. Twigsnapper has been brought up several times but since we are talking about the early Cold War.. I didn't think it would hurt again. And forgive the cut and paste but I think its worth it. Mark C

viewtopic.php?p=1296#1296

A MESSAGE FROM MR. TWIGSNAPPER TO ME DATED MAY 14TH 2006 (mymy time flys) ................. My daughter has a printed version of this in her study notebook and she is becoming an avid WWII historian. Go figure.


"To your daughter, Mark. Try to put yourself on the ground there in Germany (or France ) after the war. Think basically ..... rubble ..... People just wandering around because they had no homes standing, no where to go. Lost from their families many of them. No economy, no jobs.

And the Soviet cities were not much better, in fact many times worse. People were hungry, they didn't have adequate clothing, many were sick and there was no medical help except in very few areas. And the weather the winter of 1946 was ..... unimaginable.......... And the following winter, even worse. Most of the finest young men in Russia were dead. Someone once estimated that some 20 million people had died in Russia alone. Others said the war cost close to 56 million lives, at least half of them were civilians.

Compare that condition now with what was happening in the United States. Nearly 300,000 servicemen and women had died , but there was no damage and no fighting on American soil. The economy of the United States DOUBLED during the war. What brought Europe to her knees actually made the United States the power that she was to become.

So you can see quickly that there was suspicion in Europe over what Americas actual objectives were. A helping hand? When the Marshal Plan was announced for "economic recovery" was it going to be that or was it really "masked agression?" The Russians moved to grab as much territory as they could, The United States moved to politically block that movement. They called it a policy of "Containment"

The only reason I mentioned all of this and your Dad can tell you more interesting particulars I am sure. But understand when you move to "contain" a nation. That puts an extreme importance on your intelligence gathering sources. Its sort of like Dams that could break. You have to watch the entire line of dams all the time. You have to quickly become an expert on dams! And thats what happened. The groups like the resistance and the Jedburgs acted as patterns for the intelligence networks that followed. Everybody spied on everybody.You needed a program just to figure out who the players were! "


I edited that message from Mr. Twigsnapper just a bit. Be sure that you read the whole thread if it interests you. Anytime I can learn from someone who has had his boots in that mud, as Mr. Twigsnapper has, worth listening to what he has to say. This is just what he has offered up to us. I can just imagine what he has shared with Paul! MarkC
ladygrady
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you have been busy!

Post by ladygrady »

Go I away for just a bit and look at the things missed have I. (see, I can do it too! <g>)

I just LOVE the way this story is touching on solid ( as solid as intelligence history can be I interject) history of the world after World War II. This is fascinating, important reading!

And like many of you, just to keep up I have had to "look names up" but thats the royal beauty of it.! What a wonderful teaching tool this book is going to be!

You don't HAVE to go that deep to appreciate the love story at all but to understand its historical and political context you really do have to wake up here, don't you? Oh I do like that! Not sure it will work entirely but perhaps, just perhaps, it might. grady
Mikado14
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Saturday night live..in Boston

Post by Mikado14 »

ladygrady wrote:Go I away for just a bit and look at the things missed have I. (see, I can do it too! <g>)
You really do have a sense of humor there Ms. Grady.

or is that Mrs. Yoda?

Mikado

<g>
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy
ladygrady
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the company I keep

Post by ladygrady »

Ah, Mikado ... Its Ms. Yoda! ......... ( actually I am married to my job.) It surely is the company I keep.

And speaking of things interesting. Did you notice how this particular thread is being viewed so many more times than any other? Knocking on 3000 views. Wonder where all that interest is coming from so suddenly?

My money is on the Argonaut revelation being whispered around. like a torch being put to dry grassland. Have you noted this Paul? Paul?

No, forgot. He unplugs during the weekends. Smart man. grady
Langley
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Re: thanking you I am

Post by Langley »

grinder wrote:Thanking you I am.

Thats my Yoda voice <g> but Thanks Langley and Mikado and Elizabeth, of course, for spending time on the details and possibilities of this part of the story. I think that there is information out there that maybe needs to be seen and mentioned and so each one of our comments could be enormously helpful.

You can probably tell that I am on my own sort of quest and your insights are helping me big time and I can imagine that the same goes for PaulS. Its not a one person operation. So from my end of it " Thanking you I am" for the time and effort that you are spending. grinder

I am very flattered and thankful for that grinder, Im learning more than I know though of course. I dont know much. Theres a tv series on the life of Winston Churchill on here at the moment and its up to the WW2 period and it had an instance where Winston flew to US on Flying boat stopping in Carribean. And that's where I thought "Caroline Group" and that area of the world and its significance and why.

This whole thing is just so fascinating.
Paul S.
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Pirates III

Post by Paul S. »

Elizabeth Helen Drake wrote:And of course you know, you have to wait for the scene beyond the credit list. What was it he said .... "all depends on the day"
There was a scene after the credits? Oh drat. We usually stay for the credits, but this time I said "these credits are going to take another three hours..." and off we went.

The movie I thought was basically incomprehensible ("everybody has an agenda" does not a tight story make....), but I did get one useful quote out of the early going (see below).

--PS
Paul Schatzkin
aka "The Perfesser"
"At some point we have to deal with the facts, not what we want to believe is true." -- Jack Bauer
twigsnapper
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multigenerational

Post by twigsnapper »

Ah! Too bad you missed the last. Puts a new meaning to the words "multigenerational project" twigsnapper
Paul S.
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FBI Files

Post by Paul S. »

Mark Culpepper wrote:You said that Paul already had them. Is this something that he was able to get from the Freedom of Information Act ... or is this something that may have come to him from you across several desktops? Just wondering how available that particular information is to the general public? Would be fascinating if so, but in any case I just can't wait to see the story behind all of that.
The file I have was extracted, sometime in the mid-90-s, I think. It is fairly heavily redacted -- at least, the names of many other individuals that would be useful to see are blacked-out. What's the saying, "the documents have been declassified, but the information in them has not..." (actually, that's an old saying I just made up...).

My memory on this is a little fuzzy now, but I did file an FOIA request with the FBI. I wanted to see if I could get a more recent, less redacted version (only the names of the living are redacted). The Bureau sent me an answer saying that two of three files had been destroyed. They sent me to the Nat'l Archives in downtown DC to find the remaining file. When I got to the Archives, they told me the file I wanted was in College Park, MD.

So I drove out there, and when I got there was informed that the file had never been received. The person who was helping me contacted the Bureau, and was told that the Archives had not received the file because it, too, had been destroyed.

I might have some of the details off a bit, but that's the story, basically. Everything destroyed, what we have is all we're ever going to get.

--PS
Paul Schatzkin
aka "The Perfesser"
"At some point we have to deal with the facts, not what we want to believe is true." -- Jack Bauer
grinder
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so .... that means ......

Post by grinder »

So that means ...... that if you didn't get a request in sometimes in the 90s like Andrew did, there is no file now available to other researchers?

Almost as if once the TTBrown family ( thats what you would be I understand Andrew, with your close association) got its copy ( which you have now Paul?) then the door was slammed shut on that information?

That about right? Now, was that intentional? or was that just coincidence?

I heard a show a few days ago where a Russian ex KGB officer was quoted as saying that in his world there were no "coincidences" and I think this could be true here too.

This word has been used alot in the last couple of days and I can see it in some future book reviews .... FASCINATING. grinder
Langley
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Re: cheerfully

Post by Langley »

[quote="grinder"]Thanks to you guys I reread this one chapter too and found something interesting that I hadn't noticed before. This is from the account of the voyage on the Caroline ... after ... Stephensons visit on board..... while they anchored in the port of Nassau.

https://www.ttbrown.com/defying_gravity ... dging.html

"At one point in the voyage, “Son Fenâ€
Elizabeth Helen Drake
Sr. Research Asst.
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Joined: Fri Sep 23, 2005 6:11 am

the interesting connection ...

Post by Elizabeth Helen Drake »

And Langley,

The interesting connection between Byrds expedition and the Johnson Smithsonian expedition? Townsend Brown was first asked to join the Byrd Expedition but turned it down in favor of the warmer cruise. A fact that Paul has also verified.

The footprints that you may have seen alongside the material from the Smithsonian probably were Pauls but I am sure that he appreciates company. Never know when some little item might be overlooked. Sorta like flying a plane. Its good to have a copilot as a backup. Whats the rule about dividing the skies?

And note too that the earlier sub expedition ( the S48) plied the same pirate waters! Elizabeth
Radomir
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the stars are too high

Post by Radomir »

I just read the book _the stars are too high_ this weekend, which we've referred to earlier in this thread here:

viewtopic.php?p=6596&highlight=bahnson#6596
The Stars Are Too High, Agnew H. Bahnson, Jr. Random House. 1959. 250 pp.

Really, really interesting to read, and I highly recommend others pick it up. I found my copy on ebay--but as Paul suggested abe.com may also prove fruitful.

WARNING that the following includes what could be termed "plot spoilers" so you may prefer to read the book first and come back later.

***********
In the category of time-capsules, this book certainly felt like it was written for a future audience. Whether or not that is the case, EHD was absolutely correct that the plotline is all about exploring the moral/ethical quandary of what to do with technology so advanced it would upset the global balance of power and alter every aspect of human life on the planet. For our purposes, it treats in detail the specific moral questions of the specific technological development upon which our attention is already focused.

As much as I might have wanted them to, the main characters do not seem to directly parallel any persons we would know from the TTB narrative. But they fulfill the needed narrative roles to make the technology happen on a shoestring budget and under the official radar, so that the moral/ethical questions can then be explored. This lack of direct similarity is true with one exception: the young protagonist is forced to choose between his lover and the project, and their relationship gives the arc of the story a very "human interest" in the form of their passion for each other.

I had to wonder if this book was at least partially ghost-written. It's rare that someone writes just one good novel, of any subject matter. Given Bahnson was a scientist and pilot, I expected he would cover that sort of technical content very well, as he did. But he also pulled off the romantic and political content so well that I had to wonder (no offense to Bahnson nor to his surviving family) if he didn't have some help. Not to say scientists don't have feelings or don't understand politics. Read it and let me know what you think.

Now on to the aspects of the novel that seem most relevant to the conversation we're having here:

First, the drive function of the Argonaut of the story seems to "work" from what we've already hypothesized an early such version of TTB's concept would be properly embodied. It has an "atomic" power source (a la Fusor?). It uses gravity control--emphatically not gravity neutralization, but says in several places uses gravity itself to move up or down as it wishes. Gold and other alloy coating for protection of the occupants. And it uses somewhat conventional rocket propulsion for directional changes and lateral motivation control (steering). There is NOT a gravity neutral field inside the craft--the occupants are subject to the normal G-force limitations we have come to know from conventional fighter-jets. (Absent is any discussion of a G-suit, by the way.)

Second, there is the aspect of core technology-transfer from a post-Nazi secret project. In the novel, the actual "inventor" is a German former scientist/mechanic jack of all trades who is the only surviving member of a secret project team who blew themselves up by accident while developing their technology. He is imported into the USA after WWII--so this is presented as decidedly NOT a home-grown American technology. Is this misdirection away from TTB? (The German character is stereotyped, I'm afraid to say, as are other characters in the book. But it doesn't ruin it, and as a period piece you have to expect that.) The financial muscle is provided via an American aerospace businessman (NOT a shipment of gold from UK). The young idealistic hero, and his military science-advisor friend (who is our main narrative host through most of the novel) could remind us vaguely of qualities we've seen in Morgan and TTB (or even Bahnson himself). We have no idea if Bahnson ever even met Morgan. Still, it appears Morgan has shown up in other books since then...we may never know.

Third, the scenes in the book regarding the political/military establishment make it very clear how little faith Bahnson had in their ability to take such a technology in any direction but towards immediate weaponization. So he explores several alternative scenarios of what might be done to bring the technology to the planet with beneficial as opposed to dire consequences.

Finally, not to blow the final plot resolution, part of the "answer" arrives in the form & the influence of a non-aligned, non-governmental, international group of very highly intelligent and creative advisory Committee members. People who are described as brilliant and broad-minded, morally centered, humanistically oriented, very much like the ones we have already encountered in the Caroline mold.

And, in this story, the hero guy and gal actually are able to have a life together, despite all the obstacles.
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